Document 1678

Interview with Evelyn Entwistle for Scottish Readers Remember Project

Author(s): N/A

Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE, SCOTS Project

Audio transcription

F1189 It's the nineteenth of February two thousand and nine, and I'm at the home of Evelyn Entwistle in Waverley,
F1195 Dunedin.
F1189 Dunedin,
F1195 Yes.
F1189 erm in Otago. And it's a pleasure to be here today //[inaudible].//
F1195 //New Zealand.//
F1189 New Zealand, best of //of the world.//
F1195 //Cause// //a lot of people will not have heard of Otago.//
F1189 //[giggle]// Well they will have after they listen to //this, mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh I see, yes.//
F1189 I would imagine. And what we're here to talk about today is Evelyn's reading experiences across her lifetime. And also a wee bit abou-about yourself and your life. Erm, so in that vein could we begin erm by you telling me ah when you were born, and where you were born, if you don't mind.
F1195 Well I was born in nineteen-thirty.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I was born in Glasgow.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I went to school in, at Hamilton Academy, which is just outside of Glasgow, about half an hour's run in the bus. And we lived in Motherwell which was just next door to Hamilton.
F1189 Now when did you move to Motherwell, Evelyn?
F1195 Oh when I was several hours old I expect.
F1189 Ah right. //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //I mean I was born// literally in a hospital in //Glasgow//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 but my family lived in Motherwell.
F1189 Right, uh-huh.
F1195 And my mother had access to hospitals through being a doctor.
F1189 Your mother was a doctor then?
F1195 My fa- pa-parents were both doctors, //I'm afraid.//
F1189 //Right. Uh-huh uh-huh.// Well, don't be afraid, that's very //interesting.//
F1195 //Well, it's// not very good really to have both parents //doctors,//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 I don't think.
F1189 Did they expect you to be a doctor?
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And of course I wasn't. But it wasn't just that. I got a rather poor opinion of medicine from my parents.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 I don't think it was intentional, //but I did.//
F1189 //Mm.// In what areas did they practise?
F1195 General practice,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 and my mo- my mother was, had slightly higher degree //than my father.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Good for her.//
F1195 //But,// she was not accep-acc-accepted in Motherwell //at that time as a doctor.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mm.//
F1195 And in the waiting room when people were waiting,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 one of the bright sparks used to say 'When will the doctor be there?', when she p-poked her nose round the, and said 'next please!' And this must have hurt.
F1189 Mmhm. It must've done. //But then women were,//
F1195 //Oh yes.//
F1189 were still at that //time, fairly new in medicine.//
F1195 //Mostly, yes, yes they were.// //But even so it must've hurt though.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.// Now Motherwell's quite an industrial town and //and steel works and so forth.//
F1195 //Oh it was very industrial.// //Coal,//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //I remember coal// works and //steel,//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //coal,// coal mines and steel works, especially coal bings.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 But the only place where children could go to play was coal bings.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Do you know what a bing is? //Yes, you do, yes.//
F1189 //I d-do know what a bing is.// //Yes uh-huh.//
F1195 //And lots of people// //won't know what a bing is.//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 It's the sort of slag heap from a coal mine of steel works //and it glows after dark.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And it's not a good place for children to be playing //at all. Dangerous place.//
F1189 //No it's a dangerous place mmhm.// Nowadays they've landscaped all the the //bings but//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 I dare say in the nineteen //thirties they were unlovely//
F1195 //Yes oh yes.// //They were un-unlovely places.//
F1189 //places mm.//
F1195 So that on thinking about it, Motherwell was not a good place to bring //up a family.//
F1189 //Mm mm mm.//
F1195 There was no trees, no grass, no place for children to play safely.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And it was pretty black.//
F1189 There would've been a demand for for doctors? //Mm.//
F1195 //Oh yes.// My fa- my dad spent a lot of time looking after colliers,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 and steel workers, who got, it was called fires in the eye.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Where a little bit of hot metal [cough] splashes up and goes into your eye. [cough]
F1189 Nasty. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Nasty, very nasty, yes.// So he spent a lot of time on industrial accidents so he had to go down the mines //as well.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 But at that stage they wouldn't allow women down the mines. I don't know if it's changed.
F1189 I don't think women have ever taken to er //coal mining.//
F1195 //To going down the mines, no.// //They shouldn't.//
F1189 //And who can blame them?// //[giggle]//
F1195 //No, I wouldn't blame them at all.//
F1189 Ehm they certainly did in the early days o-o-of mining, women did it but various ehm legislative //measures debarred women.//
F1195 //Yes, yes, yes.//
F1189 I mean now, I expect the equal opportunities act would allow them but there's hardly any mining //left of course//
F1195 //Yes, exactly yes.// //It's very sad.//
F1189 //in Scotland mmhm.// So did you have brothers and sisters then, //Evelyn?//
F1195 //Yes I had// a small brother who was six years younger than I am.
F1189 Right.
F1195 And I had a half sister who was six years older than I am.
F1189 Right. //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //So because we were fairly widely spre-spread out we weren't really very close.// //And I still write to my half sister but I've just about lost touch with my brother who's living in Glasgow.//
F1189 //Mm. Right. Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// And he is your, he's not your half brother he's //your your brother uh-huh?//
F1195 //No, he's a whole one, yes, yes.//
F1189 That, that's quite interesting.
F1195 It is interesting.
F1189 Your half sister, was that your mother's child? //Right uh-huh.//
F1195 //My half sister was my father's child.// //And his first wife died in childbirth.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Right.
F1195 It was in a, what's that disease where everybody goes yellow? //[third participant suggests jaundice]//
F1189 //Eh// //jaundice, hepatitis.//
F1195 //Jaundice.// //Jaundice hepatitis yes that's right, yes.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And she had a bad ehm delivery and the child lived but she died.//
F1189 Well in those days of course really //you had little//
F1195 //I know, yes.// //Yes, little chance, yes.//
F1189 //chance. Mmhm mmhm.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //So he lost his first wife.//
F1189 Well you had a big sister then. //That-that's nice, uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes, yes it was good, yes it was good, yes.//
F1189 Now what was your house like in Motherwell?
F1195 Oh very nice. //We were comfortably off, middle class, it was two storeys, self-contained and I had a room all to myself,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 which was nice. //That was//
F1189 //That was luxury.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //luxury, yes, luxury.// But I still remember, round the house, round the house there was a wall,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 and the h- the wa- the top of the wall was concrete,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 and into the concrete was put broken glass. //And this was to keep them out.//
F1189 //Uh-huh [inhale]// Right, them being the working //class children I suppose? Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //That's right, yes, yes, yes.// //So I still find that horrifying.//
F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm mmhh.//
F1195 And there's a house on the Otago peninsula here that's got little spikes sticking up in the concrete which is the same idea to keep...
F1189 Malevolent. //[giggle] Yes. [giggle]//
F1195 //Yes malevolent, yes not nice at all.//
F1189 Now was it quite a big house then? //Mmhm mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes it had, four bedrooms cause my brother had a wee room, my parents had a big room and I had a big room and my sister had a big room.// //And there was a small room for the maid so it was five bedrooms and a s- a bath- a little bathroom upstairs.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Uh-huh. You had a live-in maid?
F1195 We had a live-in maid, yes. //Cause my parents both worked you see.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Well that was quite unusual for the time //that your mother carried on practising.//
F1195 //It was unusual.// //Yes it was unusual.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm. Right. uh-huh.//
F1195 //And, given the circumstances of her non-acceptance by the locals it was qui- it must've been a difficult thing for her to do,// //you know?//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Yes quite brave //really, mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes quite brave, yes.//
F1189 Now can you remember i-in that quite big house, then ehm where books were kept? //Mm.//
F1195 //Books? Oh, there was a study.// //There was a living room, a dining room, a study and a kitchen.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm. Right uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //And the rest of the place was surgeries and waiting rooms for the doctors.// //And my dad was in practice with another doctor and he had his surgery and waiting room in our house too,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //so that occupied a fair chunk of the// //house, yes.//
F1189 //Big house then?// //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh it was a big house, yes.// //Big house but in th-the study contained quite a f- quite a few books.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// Can you remember any of them?
F1195 Oh well I remember the ones that were done in black leather. And there was k-Kipling ones. //And there was a whole set of these Kipling ones.//
F1189 //Uh-huh. Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 So I do remember these. And upstairs in my own bedroom I had a cupboard, and the cupboard was for books and toys, and I had quite a few books.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. So you had your own books //as well as the uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //My own books as well as the family books downstairs in the study, yes.//
F1189 Did you have access to the family books? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh, yes, we were encouraged to read.// And at school we had a lot of reading to do. //And it was, I think it was a good school and fairly strict but encouraged to learn and to read, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mm mm mmhm.// Did you begin your school career at Hamilton //Academy?//
F1195 //Yes I did.// //I went//
F1189 //Right// //right//
F1195 //there from the beginning, yes,// //I was lucky.//
F1189 //till the end.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //And, I started dancing before I went to school,// cause I went my m-mother used to go to Glasgow to a woman's league of health and beauty //Do you know them? Yes that//
F1189 //Oh wow! Yes.// //"Keep young and beautiful". [laugh]//
F1195 //[inaudible], that's right.// //And she did sorts of equivalent of exercise and things, and [cough] the people in charge had a very good system and looked after the children,//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //and taught them dancing, so I started my folk dancing about the age of four.//
F1189 Right, so you've had a //long career as a dancer then.//
F1195 //Yes oh yes yes.// [cough]
F1189 Would you like ehm a drink of water //or anything Evelyn? I'll just pause this.//
F1195 //Yes, I oh it-it's okay I've got some n-nibbets or something//
F1189 I'd like to ask you about the books in the study in your house. //Now, you've mentioned the Kiplings//
F1195 //Mm.// //Yes.//
F1189 //bound in in leather.// //Uh-huh. Was that the entire set of//
F1195 //Black leather, I remember the black leather.// //mm Yes it was, yes, it was yes.//
F1189 //Kipling's oeuvre? Mm mmhm.// Ehm was there anything else there you can remember? //Mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Robert Louis Stevenson, there was a lot of them too.// //Probably just about all of them but I don't know if they were all there.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mm mm.//
F1195 //But, but we had, at school we had to do a certain amount of homework as reading, especially in the holidays,// //you know, and this helped me.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And upstairs in my own bedroom I had books by the [?]chalet[/?].// Louisa-Louisa M. Alcott. //Mm.//
F1189 //Oh yes uh-huh uh-huh "Little Women"// //mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //"Little Women" and things of that sort.//
F1189 Now, big books that people often had, particularly //in in//
F1195 //Mm.//
F1189 homes such as yourself, would be dictionaries, //encyclopaedias.//
F1195 //Yes.// //No, there weren't many of these, no.//
F1189 //No. Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Because when we came here we had to buy dictionaries and atlases and things.// //And of course we chose Chambers because it's a Scottish firm.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Your first choice? //No other considered? [laugh]//
F1195 //Oh yes, no other considered, no, no.// //We oh it was-was a science dictionary there but it's not so good as the ordinary dictionary.//
F1189 //Uh-huh, mm mm.// Mm I see you've got an Atlas //as well uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes, yes, yes.//
F1189 So so no dictionaries then, they were //surplus to requirement?//
F1195 //N-n-n-n-n-n- no, not much dictionaries, no.//
F1189 What about a Bible? //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm .//
F1195 //Oh yes, lots of bibles in fact I got one from my dad when I was twenty-one or something, yes.// //My parents went to church regularly and so I went to church too.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mm mm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Not out of any great feeling of conviction, but because at that stage there was no health service, and so it was necessary for the doctors to set a good image and go to church every week.// //And it was necessary for the doctors' children to be very well behaved,//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Oh right uh-huh. //You-you were setting an example, mm.//
F1195 //otherwise it would... setting example.// Otherwise the, my parents might not get enough patients and the money could go down.
F1189 Mm yes of course we have to recall that these are pre-National Health //Service days.//
F1195 //Pre-National Health.// When was, when was the National Health brought in? //Forty-six?//
F1189 //Nineteen forty-six.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Forty-six, why so this was nineteen thirty I was born.// //So that this was quite important.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //And getting the doctor was a consideration.//
F1195 //Yes.// //Yes, in fact money was so scarce there that sometimes patients could not pay.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And my dad ha- when he worked out his costs for things had to allow, make an allowance for certain proportion who would not be able to pay.// //That was interesting.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// But he still treated them. //Yeah.//
F1195 //Mm oh yes.//
F1189 That-that's good. //Ehm, now of those books on the shelf in the study if you cast your mind back to them,//
F1195 //Mm.//
F1189 which ones did you read?
F1195 There was a Scottish, there was a Children's Encyclopaedia by Mee. //And I read that a lot looking up things for school projects.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 Was it Children's Encyclopaedia? //Arthur Mee, yes.//
F1189 //Yes, Arthur Mee, mmhm.//
F1195 There was, ten volumes, was it ten volumes? //These-these were very important and very useful.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now were they bought for your sister? //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh I don't know who they were bought for but they were there wh-when I started reading certainly.// //Arthur Mee's Children's Encyclopaedia, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 Very good.
F1189 Right. //And upstairs in your own wee library you had Louisa May Alcott?//
F1195 //Mm mm. Yes.// Yes.
F1189 And again di- had they belonged to your sister or //were they your own?//
F1195 //No I don't think so.// //My sister was only my half sister, and she was treated not very well, a bit like a maid almost,//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //Oh dear.//
F1195 //you know, I thought.//
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 And she wasn't really viewed as one of the family, //I didn't think.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// That's a kind of classic ehm
F1195 Yes.
F1189 step //child sort of... mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Yes, yep, step child yes,// sort of thing yeah. //She and my mother did not get on very well,//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm.
F1195 as you can imagine.
F1189 Mmhm. Again //that-that's not uncommon is it? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes, classic that's very common I suspect yes.//
F1189 But she had you.
F1195 Yes. //And she...//
F1189 //Although you were a bit younger.// //Mm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes, I was s-s- yes yeah y-younger and my brother was another six years after me.// //So she had two children of her own.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm,//
F1195 //But, it wasn't really a happy household I wouldn't think.//
F1189 mm. In what way? //Mm mm mm.//
F1195 //Well, I th- I know that my dad's first wife had died in childbirth after they'd had an accident about whether they should have another child or not.// //And he went off to the islands, it was cholera he w- and it was a m-missions thing, and when he came back she'd had a miscarriage and died.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //So he'd had this to contend with all his life.//
F1189 Mmhm. Yes that's a heavy //burden to bear.//
F1195 //It's a heavy burden// //to bear and I think this is why a lot of th- my family had depression.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm.
F1195 They were rather dour Scots people //as you would say.//
F1189 //[laugh]// I knew you were going to say //that. [giggle]//
F1195 //Dour yeah, that dour Scottish people yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// I take it you, you look fairly sunny, Evelyn.
F1195 No, //I'm dour I think, depressed.//
F1189 //No, you're dour too?//
F1195 Yes. //Yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 Yes, no I'm dour too.
F1189 I can identify with that. //Ehm. [giggle]//
F1195 //Oh yes yes.// //I think most Scottish people can be a bit dour.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Do you think it's something in the national character? //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Well it could be something in the genes, I don't know.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And certainly the upbringing in those days was not very, cheerful shall we say.//
F1189 Mm. //Do you think ehm even if you take the Scot out of Scotland, that temperament comes with them?//
F1195 //[exhale]// [exhale] [inhale] //I don't know but I know that I still have a Scottish accent and I've done a lot of Scottish things in my lifetime and I still feel very Scottish.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm.
F1195 And I g- don't understand people like my husband who's English who doesn't feel strongly English.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 It's not the same.
F1189 Now that's interesting.
F1195 It is //interesting.//
F1189 //Ehm cause// you would think, well an English identity is-is //a very ehm robust//
F1195 //Yes yes.// //He doesn't//
F1189 //one.// //[laugh]//
F1195 //go dancing round Maypoles or anything of the sort you know.//
F1189 [inhale] Do you think that's maybe because here in New Zealand, just to diversify for a minute,
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Scottish culture is allowed to flourish, that there are support //mechanisms for it?//
F1195 //Well// //yes but, it's not as simple as that because I have read some place, and I think it's probably true that cultures or races that have been persecuted at various times hang on to their culture very strongly.//
F1189 //Mm mm mm mm mm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And this is a thing that I've noticed about myself.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 When, I started dancing age of four I did Scottish country dancing until about five years ago.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And when we came here I took up highland dancing when I was far too old t-t-t-to. And I struggled along with that. //I actually won a little medal once for novice-n-novice fling or something.//
F1189 //[laugh]// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //And then we s- we, my husband and I formed a Gaelic society in New Zealand.//
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And that only collapsed two years ago.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 The Burns Society thing that you went to.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //It wasn't announced but I think that was the final fling because they've been struggling to keep it going.// //They've got lots of money, but no members.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And they were very surprised to get a hundred and twenty people there. They'd all been expecting forty-five, but it was free.//
F1189 Apparently it was more than a hundred and twenty. //[?]At[/?] the time it was about a hundred and fifty.//
F1195 //I'm sure yes yes.// //Really?//
F1189 //Yes uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Because it was free and it included supper.// //And that's why they had to cut the cakes into two or three pieces, quite a sh-.//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh.// Well that's very Scottish, //isn't it? [laugh] You'll have had your tea.//
F1195 //Very Scottish, very Scottish yes.// //But one of the things I noticed in Scotland when I went back was the caste system, the class system I should say, is very strong still in Scotland.//
F1189 //Mm mm mm mmhm.// Do you think? //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes, and it doesn't exist so much here.// //And that was one of the nice things about here was that there was no class consciousness, whereas in Scotland it was still very class consciousness when I went back.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// Mm. That-that's an interesting observation, //it's one that other people have made.//
F1195 //Yes people still// Doffed their caps or what did one do to one's cap
F1189 Yes doffed //them.//
F1195 //when you// //when you meet the-the laird or something yes.//
F1189 //Mm uh-huh or// //touch your cap.//
F1195 //Touch your cap yes.// //Yes, your bunnet yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm. Your bunnet. [laugh]// //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm mm mm.//
F1195 //So this was quite interesting, cause after we'd been here for a short time I realised that one of our best friends was a house painter and if-if we'd stayed in Scotland I would never have known a house painter.// //I knew doctors and dentists and lawyers and that was about the lot.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //Very class-conscious.//
F1189 So do you think that's characteristic then of the Scottish professional //classes more than the English?//
F1195 //Well it was.// //It was, in my day certainly.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //I don't know about English ones though, cause we never met any English people.//
F1189 [laugh] Your mo- your mother and father went to church you said. //Ehm//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 now w-waswas that a strong religious conviction
F1195 No. //It wasn't, it was a social aspect.//
F1189 //or was it a social aspect they went? Mm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm mm mm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //It was tied up with money and getting patients to come, before the Health Service, because patients in those days could choose their own doctors.// //And they did.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And that's why doctors' children had to be very well behaved.//
F1189 And were you well behaved //Evelyn?//
F1195 //Yes.// //I think so.//
F1189 //[giggle] Uh-huh.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes I think so.// I was quite strictly brought up I think, yes.
F1189 Was that a good thing do you think? No. //Mm mmhm mm mm.//
F1195 //No. Not too strictly you get very re-repressed and depressed I think.//
F1189 It is something that's associated with er the sort of Presbyterian //ethic.//
F1195 //Oh yes.// //Presbyterian attitude, yes.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And the Dunedin... Otago was one of the few areas in New Zealand where the Scots outnumbered the Irish.//
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And Tom Brooking's done a lot of work on this.//
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Interesting.//
F1195 //Mm.//
F1189 Now, you've mentioned Louisa May Alcott and "Little Women" //and the uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes yes uh-huh.// //Oh.//
F1189 //Can you remember though, story books before that time, before you would've been able to read anything like that?// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Not really no, I'm sorry I can't.// Not really. //I know that we had A A Milne,//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm.
F1195 and Pooh Bear.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And "Now we Now-", "Now We Are Seven", was it? "Now We're Seven".
F1189 "Now We Are Six". //You were nearly there. [laugh]//
F1195 //"Now We're Six", that that that, yes, "Now We're S-Six" yes.// //So we had these ones and I still remember it quite a bit.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 When I was older I had a lot of ch-Chalet School stories.
F1189 Oh. //Now I haven't heard of those ones.//
F1195 //Who wrote the ch-Chalet.// C-H-A-L-E-T school.
F1189 I'll check that out. //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes well w- we had// //Chalet, yes, sorry yes.//
F1189 //Oh "The Chalet School", yeah, sorry yes uh-huh.// //The Chalet School Stories, absolutely yeah I know them well.//
F1195 //Yes "The Ch-" yes it was m- yes.// //Yes, I had about a dozen of them.//
F1189 //[giggle] Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh. Right uh-huh.//
F1195 //And they were bound in green, I remember.// Yes I had a lot of these.
F1189 And how did you get those books? //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh probably presents for Christmas and things from aunties, we had a lot of aunties and things.// //And so I probably g-got them as presents cause they knew I enjoyed them.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Yes, aunties turn out to be quite useful //for that sort of thing.//
F1195 //Aunties are very useful yes.// //Sometimes they give you things that your parents wouldn't think of giving you,//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //because they've been trying to think about what sh-she would like.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I had a lot of Aunties.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 So that's good.
F1189 Mmhm. Did you ever get any Sunday school presents?
F1195 No. I did go //to Sunday school.//
F1189 //Or prizes?// //Mm.//
F1195 //I don't think I got any prizes.// //No I don't re-remember getting any prizes for Sunday school.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //I did go to Sunday school, and when I went to boarding school I carried on going to church.// //Again, not out of any great conviction I'm afraid.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm. Well I'll ask you a bit about that in a wee minute but in the meantime while we're talking about childhood reading, //can//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 I ask you if you were ever read to?
F1195 Read to. Tar Baby. Tar Baby he no say nothing. Who was that b- who was that? And Struwwelpeter.
F1189 Oh I don't know that one either //Evelyn.//
F1195 //Oh yes you do.// //Struwwelpeter.//
F1189 //Do I?// [giggle]
F1195 S-T-R-U- Bob how do you spell Struwwelpeter? [third participant comments that he knows it only through her]
F1189 Mm.
F1195 He was, had a lot of hair.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Struwwelpeter.// And there was the one about Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. //Brer Rabbit.//
F1189 //Oh yes, uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 Uncle Remus. //Uncle Remus it was, yes Uncle Remus.//
F1189 //Uh-huh Uncle Remus, yes.// //You're quite right, uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And there was Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox.//
F1189 Mmhm yes.
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Now, when you said the Tar Baby there I kinda thought you might be meaning Little Black Sambo, //who was also around at the time.//
F1195 //No, no, yes I had Little// //Black Sambo, yes I had these books too.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 There was these little books in the little for-format white. And there was, somebody reminded me the other day of one of the books and it was in which fox was made into a roly poly pudding.
F1189 [giggle]
F1195 And m-mother was not allowed to read //past this place because it was so gruesome, the idea of this animal being made into a roly poly pudding.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh mmhm [giggle] uh-huh.//
F1195 And there was a lot of these little books, yes little books.
F1189 Were they read to you? //Mm.//
F1195 //No I don't think so. I don't remember being read to.// I think I, I probably picked up reading quite quickly. //And//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 I know that I picked up arithmetic very //quickly.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 And I used to come home from school and do extra sums which my mother and teacher had to mark.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Which they didn't want to mark, you know s-s-s-. //But I loved doing sums.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Well you're stealing the march on me cause I'm no good at sums at all, //Evelyn. [giggle]//
F1195 //Oh well you shall have to try.// //Yes, sums yes oh I did a lot of sums, I love sums.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// So did you keep all these childhood books then? Or what happened to them?
F1195 Oh I don't know what-what happened to them. I think they probably went down to my little brother, and he would've had them.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And he went off to the army and probably at that stage they got thrown out to CORSO or something and but we didn't keep them, no.
F1189 What a shame mmhm mmhm. They got thrown out to where?
F1195 CORSO.
F1189 What's that?
F1195 Bob, what is CORSO? [third participant explains that it's a British relief organisation] There we are. //Yes.//
F1189 //Really? Uh-huh.// Uh-huh.
F1195 It was a, overseas aid //type thing.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm. So they may have gone to Africa?
F1195 Yes they could've gone to Africa, yes, Little Black Sambo and all.
F1189 [laugh]. Well someone benefited from them I //I hope mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes I sh- I hope so yes, yes.// //Due to eh just like we keep throwing out books here to the book sale.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //We have a book sale every year.// //It's a great event, they have music and everybody goes to the book sale.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Is t-that in your community here?
F1195 No this is in Dunedin.
F1189 Really? //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes.// Huge book sale once a year.
F1189 Uh-huh.
F1195 And they have vans that go round areas collecting books. And it's very well organised and //makes a lot of money.//
F1189 //Where do they have that?//
F1195 In the Regent Theatre.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Downstairs there's a nice big space and the money goes to do up the Regent Theatre which is in a bad way.//
F1189 Mmhm. Mmhm.
F1195 So that's really very nice.
F1189 So I take it that theatre's not being used as a //theatre just now mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //No, not much. No it's not really up to standard.// //So that it's-it's needs a lot doing to it and that's why we have this Regent book sale every year,//
F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// //So how long has that being going on, Evelyn?//
F1195 //which is good.// Oh Bob how long has the Regent? [third participant suggests twenty-five or thirty years] //Oh a long time, yes a wee while.//
F1189 //That's a while mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //The public library also has a book sale which was advertised in the paper yesterday,// //in which they throw out books that haven't been use been used for some time and they sell these off and that's quite good too.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Well it's good for the people who can buy them. //I don't know if I//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 approve of libraries doing that, //mind you, because//
F1195 //No.//
F1189 people like me are interested to come and //have a look at the old ones mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes, to have a look, yes look at them, yes I know yes.//
F1189 I did notice the Dunedin library though has a shelf of books that have been archived //a-a-and brought back out mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh really yes yes.// There's, have you been up to the McNab room? //On the top floor?//
F1189 //Not yet no no.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well that's, you won't have time to go now.//
F1189 Ba- yeah I'll get there sometime, Evelyn, //if not this time mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Because it's it has the ones that are not allowed t-to be lent out.// //And they've got some good rare ones, yes.//
F1189 //The rare ones mmhm mmhm.// //Did you use the library in Motherwell, I know there was one, and also one in Wishaw?//
F1195 //And they're very good.// //I think we used the one in Motherwell a little bit, I don't remember going to one in Wishaw.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And, no I think we had most of our books at home really I think.// //And this Children's Encyclopedia was very useful for looking things up,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 I remember.
F1189 Ehm //were you allowed to use the library in Hamilton?//
F1195 //It was red.// Well I didn't actually live in Hamilton. I would've used the library in Motherwell. //So eh,//
F1189 //Sorry, in Motherwell, uh-huh.//
F1195 I don't know about that.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 We might've been too rich to have been allowed to use the ra-library. //Yeah.//
F1189 //Well there was a notion, taken seriously at the time, th-that books could spread contagion.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes there was, yes my parents were quite aware of this and they warned me about boo- library books, was it impetigo?//
F1189 Mm mm.
F1195 Was that the one? //The thing that was s-s-spread by//
F1189 //Yes that's right uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //library books, yes.// //I don't know if this was true or not.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm. But you had your own wee library anyway, //so it was possible...//
F1195 //Yes yes yes yes.//
F1189 Did you ever get to buy books yourself then as a child? //Mm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm uh-huh.//
F1195 //Well, no, I always had enough books g-given to me by my parents and aunties who were very good at buying me books and ornaments and things, very good.//
F1189 Now who would you say then as a child was the main influence on your reading?
F1195 Oh. Probably school I suspect.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Cause... I don't remember my parents reading much. Or my aunties reading much. //I know that we did have to read a lot at school and I think it was mainly school influence that encouraged my reading.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Cause it was a very old-fashioned sort of school, it was good.//
F1189 So there was respect given //to reading? Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes, much respect.// //And it was especially during the war when the men were all away fighting they had to use women.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And some of these women were married which was not quite right in those days, you know.// //And I remember one English teacher we had was Mrs Bois and she was married and a woman and they weren't quite happy about this,//
F1189 //Mm mm.//
F1195 you know?
F1189 [laugh] Th- do you think that might have been a factor in-in encouraging girls to read then? //Mm mm mm.//
F1195 //I don't know, it was certainly [?]helped[/?] encourage girls to go into the professions and to try and do things.// //Because this certainly needed... there's a school teacher here at King's High who did a survey of what girls wanted to be,//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //in f-, have you heard about this?// Fourth and fifth and sixth years and it was very interesting. //In fourth year they all wanted to be pilots and doctors and lawyers and everything that you would want them to be.//
F1189 //Mm mm mm.//
F1195 Sixth year they wanted to be secretaries, typists and things, the ambitions had gone down the gurgler. //You know [?]ambition[/?]. No.//
F1189 //Oh now why am I not surprised by that?// Was that fairly recent?
F1195 Yes ab- ten years ago perhaps, yes.
F1189 Well let's hope it's changed a wee bit //in ten years.//
F1195 //Let's hope it's changed a wee bit.// But I hope, I don't know whether it has or not.
F1189 Now was your school a fee paying //school then? Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes it oh yes it was, yes yes.// //Yes my parents had l- reasonably comfortable amount of money with them both working.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm.
F1195 Yes. //But the fees were not very great as far as I could m-make out.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 But, when I went to university the, my parents were sufficiently rich, get this round the right way, that I wasn't eligible for a bursary.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And this somewhat surprised me I think.// Cause although we were comfortably off I never really looked upon us as being rich.
F1189 Mm. Mmhm. Well of course you'd have gone to university after the war. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes just after the war.// //Yes.//
F1189 //And// there may have been a change in //attitude towards giving bursaries.//
F1195 //There may have been yes yes yes yes could've been.// //But I did have a year in boarding school between school and university.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //Because my parents had moved to a practice which wasn't quite big enough for, to give them enough money.// //And so they didn't stay there very long but they moved onto the one in, outside of Perth which was much bigger.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Well before I ask you about boarding school//
F1195 //Yes yes.//
F1189 ehm can I ask about the the more ephemeral reading that may have come into your house. //Things like newspapers.//
F1195 //Oh yes Magic.// //Magic, there was a comic called Magic.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Do you remember Magic?//
F1189 Now do you know you're the first person to say that you ha- you've read that. I have a wee list, I don't have it with me o- //comics uh-huh uh-huh mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Wizard Wizard, and mind you s-some of them I think the Wizard appealed more to my little brother than me but Magic was a nice one.// //Yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 Did you have Magic?
F1189 I, Magic I think stopped during the war.
F1195 Yes perhaps yes but I had Magic for a long time.
F1189 Uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //That was nice.//
F1189 Ehm what do you remember about that comic, Evelyn? //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh not very much except it was very colourful and mind you, that's all I can remember, sorry.//
F1189 Mmhm. Did you buy it yourself?
F1195 No, my parents bought it for me.
F1189 So it... was it delivered to the house? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Must've been delivered to the house yes.//
F1189 What about your your half sister, did she get any comics that you might've had access //to?//
F1195 //No I don'tthink so.// Sh-, no she she was packed off to be a nurse
F1189 Mm.
F1195 in ah Glasgow Univers- Glasgow Infirmary.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And they weren't allowed out much at all.// //And she was only allowed home as it were for the holidays and things.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 She had a fairly grim time I thought.
F1189 Well I dare say she would've been an age to do war work so em. //No no.//
F1195 //No I don't think sh-she would she wasn't old enough for doing.// //I had various aunts who did war work like driving and one one of my aunts who was very sociable, she had the job of escorting back wounded soldiers to their homes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm mm.// //Mmhm yes.//
F1195 //Which must've been qui- slightly traumatic at times, you know.//
F1189 Yes uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //So that was Aunt Hilda and she she gave me lots of books.//
F1189 Did she? //Can you recall any of them?//
F1195 //Yes [inaudible].// //No, not really no but I know she gave me lots of books and lots of brooches.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //She was very good at choosing brooches that I liked.//
F1189 Mm. Now, was there a newspapaer that came into the house, Evelyn? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes, there was a newspaper.// This was the Guardian.
F1189 Really? //[giggle]//
F1195 //Yes.// //And the Observer.//
F1189 //Now that's interesting, uh-huh.// Uh-huh.
F1195 The Guardian, that's the Glasgow newpaper, wasn't it?
F1189 No, the the Glasgow newspaper was the Herald.
F1195 The Herald. [third participant comments that the Guardian used to be the Manchester Guardian]
F1189 It was the Manchester //Guardian uh-huh.//
F1195 //Oh well oh well I'm getting... no.// //Yes uh-huh.//
F1189 //Now I was thinking there cause the Manchester Guardian's quite left wing.//
F1195 Oh yes yes.
F1189 Well. //Left of//
F1195 //Yes yes.// //No, it was- must've been th- the Herald.//
F1189 //centre.// Mm.
F1195 It must've been the Glasgow //Herald. No.//
F1189 //Which was not left wing.// //[laugh] Not then//
F1195 //Definitely not, no.// //What about the Obs-Observer, when did it start?//
F1189 //anyway. Mmhm.// That would have been on the go then too. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I know that my dad used to annoy me by reading the newspaper over breakfast.//
F1189 Mm. //Mm mm.//
F1195 //And reading out bits of it to us as if we were all incapable of r- of reading ourselves and this used to annoy me.//
F1189 Was that him playing with sort of eh
F1195 Big man.
F1189 patriarch? //[laugh] Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes, I think so, yes yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh.
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Did you ever say, "that annoys me"? //Mm mm.//
F1195 //No, I don- oh no he wasn't that sort of man.//
F1189 Mmhm. Mmhm. So what kind of things would he read out? //Mm.//
F1195 //Oh ehm, things that he thought important.// He was, he'd been in the army.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And he was very much a sort of ex-army type man.// //Sort of you d- if you don't agree with him he'll stand you up against a wall and shoot you sort of idea, that's the sort of solve the problem.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm, right uh-huh uh-huh.// //[laugh]//
F1195 //And// //he wasn't really very tolerant and he was very hard on my little brother,//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //who was quite a nice wee lad.//
F1189 Mm. Now, again before we move away //from your house,//
F1195 //Mm.//
F1189 the maid, did you have the same maid //a long time?//
F1195 //No.// //My parents have aff- could afford a maid.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Her main job was to answer the phone for the m-messages from ill people about patients but she had a bedroom in the house and she did most of the cooking in the kitchen.// //And the kitchen was her living room as it were.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 And, she had an Essay cooker. //Essay cooker?//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 E-S-S-A-Y. //Oh yes.//
F1189 //Oh I don't remember that one but I take your word for it, Evelyn, yes.// //Uh-huh mmhm mm mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And it was a coal range and she did all her baking on there and she was very good at making chips.//
F1189 Mmhm. [giggle] //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And the thing th-that my parents always did was to choose somebody with some disability or or could have a child, could have been unmarried with a child to try and sort of help them out a wee bit.// //Yes yes yes.//
F1189 //Right, so they had quite a social conscience in that way mmhm mmhm.// Eh an-and did she have a a child then? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes there was a wee child there I remember.// //Yes yes.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 Must have had a grim life.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 But I suppose she had a day off.
F1189 Mmhm. Do you ever remember the maid having any eh magazines or //things like that?//
F1195 //No, not really no.// //No, she didn't have much time she was busy washing clothes and ironing for three children and two adults.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //So she didn't really have much time at all for reading or anything.//
F1189 Mm.
F1195 I don't think so.
F1189 Now, where was your boarding school, Evelyn?
F1195 Oh in Edinburgh. //The, my p-parents at this stage were living at Innellan on the Clyde and didn't want me to go to the Innellan school because they thought it wasn't good enough.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 So they sent me to a friend's place first of all for a few months while I did my Highers.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And then I went to Rothesay House in Edinburgh,
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 which was a boarding school for girls.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Quite prim.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And most of the girls were very nice and quite well off.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I did a lot of music there which I enjoyed, good music there.// //And also a bit of Maths, Science, Chemistry which I was interested in.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //There was no Chemistry s- much, so I was just given a textbook.// //Maths, there was a lady who we had to go out to her house cause it wasn't quite a suitable subject for young women.//
F1189 //Mmhm. [laugh]// Uh-huh? So wh- I've got images of Marcia Blaine's //here.//
F1195 //Yes.// Yes. //Yes.//
F1189 //Ehm,// Muriel Spark's... //ehm//
F1195 //Yes exactly yes.// //It was, the, I was pretty unhappy at first at the boarding school.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 //I I wrote home about several weeks after I was there. It was [inaudible] and after I finished I read the letter and realised I couldn't post it, it would make my parents so miserable.// So I wrote it up, I tore it up and wrote a happier letter. //I got to appreciate it a bit more with especially with the Music.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And I played a lot of games and things.// //But Maths and Science which were the areas that I liked, were just not there really.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mm right. Oh well it wasn't the right school for //you then.//
F1195 //It wasn't the right// //school but it was an attempt to make me into a lady.//
F1189 //Mm.// Ah. //[laugh]//
F1195 //And it failed.// //It failed miserably.//
F1189 //[laugh]// Was it a kind of em
F1195 It was a finishing //school.//
F1189 //finishing school?// //Mm.//
F1195 //Oh yes it was, definitely yes.// And the lady in ch-, it was in Edinburgh, Rothesay Place. And the person in charge was known as Miss Clem.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And that must've been Clementine something or other.// And there was n- lots of pianos around, it was nice and m-musical. //But as regards Maths and Science, no.//
F1189 //Mm.// Now which part of Edinburgh is //that?//
F1195 //This was// Rothesay House. You know Binns Corner?
F1189 I do yes. //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Drumsheugh Gardens.// //It was away down there, it was in George Street, yes yes yes.//
F1189 //So it was out at the West End, mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Do you recall anything about what you were given to read while you were there, given the type of school it was? //Mm.//
F1195 //French literature mainly.// //We did a lot of reading of French literature,//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 which I can't remember anything much at all about. //And especially plays.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm?
F1195 We did a lot of studying of French plays.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And that's about all I can remember. //Oh there was a quite a nice Latin teacher there so I did a bit, quite a bit of Latin.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// So you learned languages //then? Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //La-languages yes.// //And a wee bit of German, we had six weeks' German.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// So you would be a young lady of accomplishment? //[laugh]//
F1195 //Yes I could play the piano and I read French plays, yes.// But I wasn't really a young lady.
F1189 Flower arra-arranging? //Or... [laugh]//
F1195 //That's right, yes.// //No.//
F1189 //Did you do anything like that?// Erm, elocution or...?
F1195 No I don't //think so, no.//
F1189 //Deportment, no?// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //No although Mis-Miss Clem used to have the senior girls around for, she used to read out to us.// Something from some books or other that she found enlightening.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 But I don't remember the books or anything about them, except that it was boring.
F1189 Right, I was about to say it couldn't have been that //exciting then, mm mm uh-huh.//
F1195 //No, it couldn't have been exciting, no no no.// //She tried hard though.//
F1189 //Now i-, uh-huh.// Did you like her?
F1195 Yes, in a way, she was very kindly.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And one felt that you should like her, you know?// //And there was these, it was in these houses in Rothesay Place which was just off Drumsheugh Gardens and we all used to troop to church on Sunday which was Saint Mary's Anglican.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //But I didn't care whether it was Anglican or Presbyterian.//
F1189 I take it your parents were Church of Scotland //then? Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes oh yes, yes definitely.//
F1189 Yes uh-huh.
F1195 We knew the minister and his family quite well.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Yes. //And the lawyer and his family, and the dentist and his family.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 No one else.
F1189 That might have been a practice in those days for, for middle class Scottish families to belong to eh the likes of literary circles. //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Yes oh yes there was an Alyth literary cir-// //ah, this was after the war mind you.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 I, when my parents moved to Alyth
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 with a bigger prac-practice they were founding members of the Alyth literary society.
F1189 Mm mmhm.
F1195 And Alyth recently has been in the news for doing something about sustainability. //It's putting in energy audits into each house free,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 which is something we've not got round to //yet here, yes oh yes.//
F1189 //They're pioneers yes.// Now Alyth, that's in Perthshire //isn't it, yes uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Perthshire, yes it was outsi- it was about,// //I went to college at in Dundee you see, and it was there that I met Bob, he was also at college there.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 And it was sort of, you went in the bus from Alyth to Dundee, or else Alyth to Perth.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //But I found the travelling a bit much so I eventually I got put into a boarding school.// //with a board-, ehm a hostel.//
F1189 //Right uh-huh.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And that was alright cause there were lots of people there.//
F1189 Mmhm. Did you ever attend the the literary society? //Mm.//
F1195 //I think I must've gone once but I can't, once or twice, I can't remember much about it.// //I know that my parents were very supportive, especially my mother, were very supportive of the li-, Alyth lit-literary society.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //I don't know how many people went to it, perhaps fifty, I'm not sure.//
F1189 And it survived //for a wee while then? Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //It survived, oh yes quite a long time, yes.// //Quite a long time, in fact I got an Alyth newspaper the other day sent to me by my half sister and the literary society was still in existence.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// Mmhm. //That's interesting uh-huh.//
F1195 //Which is quite good, yes.//
F1189 But there was nothing like that in Motherwell then? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //No, no, not at all.// //I think perhaps because of class distinction.//
F1189 //Mm.// Right. //Uh-huh uh-huh mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //You know, you wouldn't want to be mixing with people if you put glass on top of the wall.//
F1189 Were you conscious of that when you were growing up //then? Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well no, not really but m-m-much more conscious of it when I came out here.//
F1189 On- yeah.
F1195 Yes so where there wasn't this same sort of class distinction. //But it was-.//
F1189 //Has that caused you to reflect back on// //your life in Scotland? Mm mm Yes mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Oh yes undoubtedly, to see this broken glass on top of the wall as being not nice, just like the house on the peninsula out there having the spikes on the concrete on the wall, which again is not nice, the same thing.// //Oh yes I think it's very class-conscious.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //Now in all thos-//
F1195 //I hope it-//
F1189 sorry. //Mm.//
F1195 //The whole business of being brought up as a doctor's daughter was another aspect of it.//
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Having to behave well because you were a doctor's daughter.
F1189 Now did that good behaviour then, ehm extend to being a a patriotic citizen? Do you remember anything, reading anything about royalty or Britain's place in the Empire //at that time?//
F1195 //Oh// I suppose I must. Well my dad did go off to the army. //I think I had to have a sense of obligation.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 And my brother was in the airforce for a couple of years.
F1189 Mm. //Mm mm.//
F1195 //No I don't think I ever felt particularly patriotic.// Not really, no I don't think so. //Wh- during the war we had a lot of Polish soldiers billeted with us.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And that sort of brought the war and one of them was in our house and he played the piano beautifully.//
F1189 Ah uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes oh he was alright.//
F1189 So I take it you had no choice in the matter //about having them?//
F1195 //No, not really.//
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //No, I think you all wi- expect if you had space you were expected to billet all these soldiers.//
F1189 What about being evacuated, was that ever a //consideration?//
F1195 //Bob was evacuated. I wasn't evacuated because...//
F1189 You were in an area //that might've been at risk. Mm.//
F1195 //It was an area that might've yes yes.// //We had a a shelter, an Anderson shelter in the back garden, which was ghastly and had water in. You had to wear gumboots if you were going there. You didn't want to go in there and sleep unless you were desperate.//
F1189 //Mmhm [laugh] uh-huh.// Uh-huh. //Did you spend much time in the Anderson shelter?//
F1195 //But.// //Not really, no, I don't think so but I know that we did go there occasionally when the, when the Blitz was on,//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //we retired to the Anderson shelter.// //So I suppose...//
F1189 //Could you read in there?//
F1195 Oh no. You only went in there and got into a bunk and sleeping bag and slept.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 No you couldn't re- I don't think we had electricity or anything
F1189 Mm.
F1195 in the Anderson shelter.
F1189 No torches //or//
F1195 //No I don't think so, no.//
F1189 mm.
F1195 No, it was... //it was, it was fairly grim, yes.//
F1189 //Sounds fairly grim actually mm.// Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Fairly grim, especially Anderson shelter.//
F1189 So would it have just been the family then and the maid and //her child who were in the shelter?//
F1195 //Yes yes yes yes.// Oh yes.
F1189 Uh-huh. It'd still be quite crowded I imagine //at that?//
F1195 //Oh yes.// //There was about four bunks and you sat on the bunks and until the, there was a siren that went when the w- the air-, when the air raid was all over or something.//
F1189 //Mm mm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And then you would get back into your own bed,
F1189 Mmhm. //[laugh]//
F1195 //thankfully and warmer.// //Mm.//
F1189 //Now in travelling to to Hamilton Academy everyday em how did you get there by the way?// //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Bus, stood at the bus stop and got chilblains.//
F1189 Uh-huh. [laugh]
F1195 I did. //And there was lots of buses. At least there seemed to be a bus about every ten minutes, so you didn't have to wait very long.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// Mmhm. So it was not a long journey then? //Do you ever remember//
F1195 //No.// //Ten minutes, no.//
F1189 //eh reading on that journey?//
F1195 No it was too short. //Y-you got off at Hamilton Cross and you walked up into Bran- walked up to the Top Cross then into Brandon Street and along past an ice-cream shop, I remember the ice-cream shop, until you got to Hamilton Academy.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Which was on a little crossroads off Brandon Street.// I've never been back there.
F1189 Well I don't know if it's still there now but I can tell you that ice-cream shop was still there thirty years ago. //[laugh] Uh-huh mm.//
F1195 //Although I'm sure that it's not there now but it was quite a nice wee// //ice-cream.//
F1189 //It was.//
F1195 And there was another place I used to go to some place that had hot peas in a saucer.
F1189 Mmhm? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Do you remember that one?//
F1189 There was a café there yes, //there was an Italian café in Brandon Street.//
F1195 //Yes, I don't remember yes.// //This, but this was one on a little street between the Lower Cross and the Top Cross.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm mm mm.//
F1195 //If you went you could save a few minutes by going up this back street and there there was this place that did peas on a saucer.//
F1189 Did you go and have peas //on a saucer?//
F1195 //Yes sometimes yes.// //Feeling very naughty.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// Yeah it was a bit naughty wasn't //it,//
F1195 //It was a bit naughty yes.//
F1189 ehm for the doctors' //daughter. [laugh]//
F1195 //Yes oh yes.// //Yes it was naughty.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.//
F1195 I think we had a bit of vinegar or something with them.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 Did you ever have peas in a saucer?
F1189 Eh yes //I have uh-huh uh-huh a delicacy.//
F1195 //Did you, yes yes.// //Delicacy yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// So would you do that on your way back from school? //Mm.//
F1195 //Yes sometimes, yes.// //Yes, peas in a saucer.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 It was all part of the class distinction again.
F1189 What about fish and chips out of a //newspaper?//
F1195 //No.// //Not really no, not really no.//
F1189 //Mm.// //[laugh]//
F1195 //Peas in a saucer was as far as I was, as far down as I went.//
F1189 It was probably bad enough. //[laugh]//
F1195 //Probably bad enough, yes yes.//
F1189 Ehm well I think we probably should move on from there to what you did when you left school. What age were you when you left school?
F1195 Oh, //I think I was either fifteen or sixteen.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //And then I had the year in boarding school.// //And so I went up to university at sixteen which was really very young.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And very immature.//
F1189 That is very young.
F1195 Yes and I was in a student ho- a student hostel,
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //when I was sixteen.//
F1189 At Dundee //University? Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Dundee yes, Dundee yes yes yes.//
F1189 Now also er you learned piano, when did you //start learning?//
F1195 //Yes.// //Oh st- le- piano oh about age of seven, as soon as my hands were big enough.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And I had piano lessons at boarding school which was rather nice.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //But I k- had to give it up when I went to university, th- no piano there.//
F1189 Mm. And was any of that music you were ehm given to play, traditional Scottish //music?//
F1195 //Yes.// //Oh yes, yes quite a bit of it, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 Yes. Although we did a lot of scales and arpeggios and things, //which were boring rather.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 But anyway, no we did quite a bit of scales and things.
F1189 Now what about er traditional Scottish literature? //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Oh well I didn't have time to read much at university.// //But I did remember reading "Ivanhoe", Scott, we got a lot of Scott to read somehow or other.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 But that couldn't have been a part of the course.
F1189 Mm. Would that have been at school? //Mm.//
F1195 //Perhaps that was at boarding school.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I remember reading quite a bit of Scott. //And I more or less had to read this Scottish stuff.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 It was pretty...
F1189 It's alright, you can say it. //[laugh]//
F1195 //pret-pretty dry and boring,// Scott, Sir Walter.
F1189 Sir Walter has had a very bad press so far. //[laugh]//
F1195 //And yet, everybody seemed to have to read him.// So somebody must've been wrong.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Because I remember I didn't enjoy Sir Walter Scott at all.//
F1189 What about Robert Louis Stevenson then cause you mentioned him //they were at home.//
F1195 //We mentioned, yes// we mentioned, yes, //he was easier to read than Sir Walter Scott.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And, but I don't think I read any of them. Cat-, did he write one called Catriona?
F1189 Ehm no. I know one c- Catriona yes uh-huh but I'm trying to think //who wrote that.//
F1195 //I think just.//
F1189 It's it's gone //sorry. Ehm//
F1195 //Never mind.//
F1189 mmhm. But I know what you mean. Mmhm. And another Scottish book //yes uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes.// Yes, no, I don't think that, was it a-at university we were encouraged to read
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 science and things.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And so I didn't read much else.
F1189 Mm. //You we- you did have//
F1195 //I used to go home.//
F1189 Scott inflicted on you. //[laugh]//
F1195 //Oh yes.// We, I used to go, I used to go home for weekends and used to read the R-Radio Times,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 which I rather enjoyed.
F1189 Mm mmhm. Now what about Robert Burns, ehm
F1195 No.
F1189 did you get much of him in your //your//
F1195 //No.//
F1189 whole education? //Mm.//
F1195 //Not really no not much at all.// //No, I had done, had more out here than I ever had at home I think.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// So your parents weren't ever members of a //Burns Society or anything.//
F1195 //No no.// And they didn't teach me any Gaelic at all,
F1189 Mm mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //which was a pity.// //They weren't really//
F1189 //Did they speak// Gaelic? //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //No they didn't, they didn't really have much interest in-. My mother once said that she thought that she might vote for Scottish... SNP.//
F1189 Mm mmhm.
F1195 But she was really a Liberal.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 You know, and my dad was probably Conservative, I don't know.
F1189 Wher-where did your parents come from in Scotland?
F1195 Well, my dad came from Elgin.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 A place up in the North. My dad's people baked cakes and things.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //Austin's of Elgin.//
F1189 That's the north east isn't //it?//
F1195 //North east yes.// My mother's people came from Glasgow.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And sh- so she was eh Glasgow bred and born.
F1189 Mm. So there's probably no reason why they would ever have had Gaelic unless //some of their ancestors had moved from//
F1195 //No no there's not.// //But it would've been quite handy,//
F1189 //the west, north west.// //Mm.//
F1195 //cause I had to start learning it when I came out here.//
F1189 Uh-huh. Now why did you have to start learning it out //here?//
F1195 //Because// I'm Scottish.
F1189 [laugh] I see, so is there, there's an intimate association then between an older Scottish language which is Scots //Gaelic//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 and being an imm-immigrant. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes something about absence makes the heart grow fonder.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Because when I came out here I started highland, no when I came out here I dropped highland dancing to which I found it was different out here.// But I started learning Gaelic.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And ultimately I was teaching Gaelic just a wee bit.
F1189 That's that's quite an accomplishment. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Well it was qu- ehm quite hard work.// //And it would've been helpful if my parents had known a wee bit, you know and taught me a wee bit but they didn't.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Do you think that should've been part of the school system in Scotland?
F1195 Oh yes I do. //And I ju- keep wondering whether this devolution//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //will affect Gaelic.// //But it's not doing//
F1189 //I think it will.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //very w- very well, Welsh is doing much better than Gaelic.//
F1189 I think the reason for that is because the Welsh have kept their language. //Ehm mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Yes and the Welsh th-th- have been sensible and have introduced the, a thing a sort of act that doctors and lawyers and s- these such people have to have a minimum of Welsh.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //And this has had a big effect on the number of people studying Welsh.//
F1189 So what do you think then about the preservation of Scots? Lowland Scots? //Mm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I think it's quite important that people try and hang on to a second language because after you've got a second language a third one is not so hard.// //But getting that second one into your head you realise that people can do things differently from what you do.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //I mean one of the things about Gaelic was that they change over to plurals at three not two.// Russians change it over to five.
F1189 Mmhm. //Yes uh-huh mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Whereas in, if you'd only done British you would think that it always changes at two but you'd be wrong.// //And then th- in Gaelic there's something about the grass, blue grass.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 And if you only knew English
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //you would assume that all grass was green.// But they say grass that has had fertiliser added has a bluish-green.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And so they call that blue.
F1189 Mmhm. Oh It's like //Eskimos with snow. [laugh]//
F1195 //That's it, that's right Eskimos with snow.// //And so you do learn a lot from learning a second language.//
F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Well I would agree with you//
F1195 //It doesn't m- yes.// //It doesn't much matter which language it is as long as you learn a second one.//
F1189 //mmhm mmhm.// But that would give us three languages in Scotland.
F1195 Yes, well that would be alright. I wouldn't mind that. //Yes.//
F1189 //You're all behind that.// //[laugh]//
F1195 //Oh yes.// Yes. I think that'd be quite good.
F1189 Now what did you study at university, Evelyn? //Mm mm mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Chemistry and Maths and Physics and Biochemistry and Physiology.//
F1189 Very very ambitious for a young woman then, I think. //Mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well no it wasn't tha- in those days, I mean things had changed a lot since my mother was in practice.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And these at tha-that time wo-women were quite acceptable,// //and did the same sort of things, except for engineering, they didn't go in for engineering much.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mm.// Mmhm.
F1195 Wh-why I'm not sure. //It just wasn't done for girls to go in for engineering.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// So what were your career ambitions then?
F1195 Oh well I was going to be a research chemist, //which eventually I was.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// How did your parents feel about that? Well you've said already they wanted you to //be a doctor.//
F1195 //They wanted me to be a doctor.// I don't think they cared very much quite frankly.
F1189 I would have thought really, if not a doctor, a scientist is ehm //Mm.//
F1195 //Is next best, perhaps it was next// //best, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //I d- I don't think they cared too much.//
F1189 Now you wouldn't have done too much eh literary study I don't imagine //as part of that course.//
F1195 //No, none whatsoever.// //No, the, in order to get a science degree you had to have done a certain amount of German,//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //which I thought was an excellent idea because of pati- papers being written in German.// //Chemistry especially.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //No, I didn't have to do any literary studies at all.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Exce- ah one thing I should've mentioned was that when I was at boarding school and had to go out for Mathematics,
F1189 mm //Mmhm.//
F1195 //the teacher there got you to write essays on mathematical subjects,// //which was not something I had done before and which I found quite tricky.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm.
F1195 But it was good training.
F1189 In writing //you mean? Mm.//
F1195 //In writing, writing.// //Cause when I came, after I'd... came out here I, and after I'd done a job here, I went back and I did a degree in Economics and something, eh, Philosophy of Science.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mm mm.//
F1195 And there I had to write essays.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //And I found that I quite enjoyed writing essays, you know, but it hadn't all been a waste of time.// //Writing essays is quite good.//
F1189 //Yeah, mmhm.// //Cause I imagine most of the writing that you would have done in a science degree at that time would have been lab//
F1195 //Mm.// //Lab books, lab reports yes.//
F1189 //reports, yes. Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh mm uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes, and so I really hadn't done a lot of essay writing at all, so that was really quite quite good,// to f- to find that I could still enjoy writing essays.
F1189 Did you read for pleasure though still during that that time? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //No I didn't, I'm afraid.// //I had one science, one Chemistry book that I rather enjoyed reading for pleasure.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //But that was the only one it was a thousand pages or something I remember.// //It was enormous. I still have it.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 It was written by Glasston with two Ss.
F1189 Mm. Now why was that, was it a matter of time or were you busy //doing other things?//
F1195 //Oh I suppose I was// busy, well I was in tramping a wee bit,
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Scottish country dancing, I was on the committee.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I was treasurer for the Rucksack club.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And I went home every weekend so I wasn't available at weekends.//
F1189 Right uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //So that I didn't really have much spare time at that stage really.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //I was quite busy.//
F1189 Now you said tramping there and that's very New Zealand expression, //isn't it?//
F1195 //Yes well// //in Dun-Dundee it was called the Rucksack club.//
F1189 //Yes.// Uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //And// there ehm I got to know Bob a bit.
F1189 Uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And I was treasurer of the Rucksack club for quite a few years.// //They used to go off tramping just about every time, every every spare weekend, shall we say.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And we went, did quite a lot of tramping around Dundee.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Glen Doll and Glen Isla,
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 these places.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And that was quite good.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And so we've kept up the tramping here.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Cause it's a good place for tramping, Dunedin. //Yes, lots, yes.//
F1189 //Oh it certainly is, many a hill here.// //[laugh]//
F1195 //Many a hill, yes.// //It's supposed to be b-built on seven hills just like Rome or something.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm.// [laugh] Now, so you had the hill-walking club and you had the Scottish country //dancing.//
F1195 //Yes.// //And that that//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 and that with, especially with going home at weekends. //That was enough.//
F1189 //Did you take that up at university?//
F1195 The
F1189 The the //country dancing.//
F1195 //Hill-walking?// No, I've been I've been dancing ever since //I was, yes I was four, yes.//
F1189 //Well uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 No, I've been doing Scottish country dancing all the way //through. Yes yes yes yes.//
F1189 //Right, so it was always traditional dancing that that you did.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //By the way somebody told me the other day that in Scotland they're now doing ceilidh dancing.//
F1189 Yes //yes uh-huh.//
F1195 //Is that true?// //Cause I-.//
F1189 //It's very big business now.//
F1195 Really? Now is this the same as Irish ceilidh dancing?
F1189 No, it //actually wo-//
F1195 //Cause I've done Irish ceilidh dancing.// And I asked him about this and he was obviously getting slightly angry so I stopped asking him questions.
F1189 Actually it will be, mostly the Scottish country dances that you're familiar with. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes.// //Well, you know, cause I th- I was at a concert the other day and there was a fiddler, a very good fiddler from the Isle of Skye.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm .//
F1195 //And he played beautifully except for strathspeys which were twice the speed I would have liked them at.// //So I I app- I approached him about this afterwards and he said "oh yes but I play for lots of dances in Scotland and this is how they//
F1189 //Mm mmhm .// //Yes uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //play to stra-strathspeys these days."//
F1189 It's because they're very popular with young people, //Evelyn.//
F1195 //Yes.// //But how can you, how can you do ceilidh dancing to strathspeys?//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //I//
F1195 //If it-//
F1189 think they're probably not so disciplined. //Mm.//
F1195 //This is the thing cause Scottish country dancing was fairly formal.//
F1189 Yes. //Well it it,//
F1195 //At least it was.//
F1189 these are more informal me- versions of //traditional dances.//
F1195 //It's more like eh more like// what we c-call a bush dance. //Yes yes yes yes//
F1189 //Yes. Uh-huh uh-huh yes exactly so uh-huh.// //But based//
F1195 //yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //on on the the traditional dances.// //Uh-huh mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Cause I didn't really see how they could dance to this fast strathspey.//
F1189 There is one that's eh a ceilidh band that's made up all of women.
F1195 Really?
F1189 Mm.
F1195 They must be desperate.
F1189 [laugh] Erm they're very popular.
F1195 Yes good.
F1189 Apparently. Ehm now you've you've taken me off the point //there. [laugh]//
F1195 //Yes I have, yes sorry yes.//
F1189 No, that's interesting though that you kept that up. Ehm, now what age would you've been when you graduated then from Dundee? //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh twenty-one or something yes, about twenty-one, quite young.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Yes. //Yes.//
F1189 //Yes still quite young but then you were only sixteen when you,//
F1195 Yes, I started, //yes.//
F1189 //you started.// Uh-huh.
F1195 And ah then I-I would say, no that wouldn't be right.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //I went, I did a science degree then honours then three years of PhD.//
F1189 Mm.
F1195 So probably after that I'd be about twenty-four.
F1189 Mmhm. //Right.//
F1195 //Or twenty-five yes.// //I think yes.//
F1189 //So did you// finish a PhD?
F1195 Yes I did, yes yes.
F1189 Hello then doctor //Entwistle. [laugh] I wasn't aware of that.//
F1195 //Yes that's right that's yes.// //Yes yup yup.//
F1189 //[laugh]// Uh-huh. So what did you do then? You'd already met your your //your husband or was he your future husband at that time?//
F1195 //Oh we got we got// //married when I was, we were twenty se-, I was twenty-six.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And we came out here when we were about thirty.//
F1189 Right. Uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And in that period he did his PhD and I was working with Courtaulds outside of London as a research chemist.//
F1189 Right. Ah so you moved from Scotland, //then you went down south uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes y-, couldn't get a decent job in Scotland at that stage.// //Not not not one//
F1189 //Oh nothing's changed.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //not one that really required a PhD you see.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //And so I got this scholarship from Courtaulds,//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm Yes mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And they offered me a job so that was, that was that, so I stayed there for about four or five years.//
F1189 Mmhm. What decided you on coming out here?
F1195 Well he got a job.
F1189 Right, I see. So it was, had you h-had any thoughts yourself about //emigrating?//
F1195 //No.// //Not really but sa- ah we did want out of London.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Right mmhm. //Mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //London, well he travelled for three hours a day and I didn't enjoy living in London.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Too too busy, too many people, too many cars and buildings and houses and things.// //You go out for a walk you can't escape from buildings and houses and people.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// This would have been during the fifties then //in London?//
F1195 //Yes it would have been yes yes.//
F1189 Ehm pictures painted of London in the fifties //it's quite austere really, a bit depressed.//
F1195 //Yes, oh yes.// //Yes it was a bit depressed, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 We stayed in Kilburn which was an Irish //area, you know,//
F1189 //Oh I know it [laugh] yes.// Uh-huh. //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //which is quite a reasonable place to stay but even so I didn't really much like living in London.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I wanted out.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And here is out.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. Ehm was it the, well what was it particularly about New Zealand then? Did, I mean, your husband apply for a job //here or was he offered a jo-?//
F1195 //He applied for a job, he applied// for a job initially in Canada, Victoria Island.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And he didn't get that one but then he applied for this one at Otago and he got that one.// So that decided it. We wanted out, //basically.//
F1189 //Right.// Uh-huh. Out, out of Britain? //Or just out of London?//
F1195 //Out of Britain.// Yes. //Out of,//
F1189 //Or something new?//
F1195 out of high density living.
F1189 Mm mmhm. So you wanted something a bit more rural //then?//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh. //Right.//
F1195 //Yes.// And with more space.
F1189 Right. And did these countries then represent that to you?
F1195 Yes, freedom,
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //to wander around yes.//
F1189 What did you think about New Zealand though as an option? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh well I didn't know anything about New Zealand except what I'd learned at school.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I thought it was flat with lots of sheep on it and that's about all I knew, Canterbury Plain.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 But it wasn't like that at all.
F1189 Well it's not flat //here, that's for sure.//
F1195 //It's not flat, no.//
F1189 [laugh] //Uh-huh mmhm.//
F1195 //There aren't a lot of sheep, at least there w-.// //when we came there was six sh- six sheep for every one person.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //But I think it's gone down a wee bit now.// //But it's still quite sh-sheep and c-cowy, still quite rural.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mm. Yes it does have a a quite a //a rural feel to it even though it's a city here.//
F1195 //Yes, yes it does yeah yeah.// Yeah.
F1189 Ehm and did you always know it was going to be Dunedin then that...
F1195 No.
F1189 Right.
F1195 Any place that was out,
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm ah.//
F1195 //you know to escape from this high density living I wanted.//
F1189 So once you knew you were coming here
F1195 Yes.
F1189 can you recall reading anything more about New Zealand? Either books or almanacs //or or migration literature?//
F1195 //Yes I'm just tr-tr// //trying to think of that book that, who was that green book that we've got through there about New Zealand.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And camping.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 [third participant suggest Maurice Guard] No no not Maurice [?]Guard[/?]. A thick book that you set great store by. [third participant suggest a Scott Russell book] No, this was Brenda Brenda. No n-never mind. Anyway there was one book which er we enjoyed,
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 which praised this spaciousness and how you could go camping and tramping.
F1189 Mmhm. Did you get any ehm literature from eh //the New Zealand authorities?//
F1195 //New Zealand House.// //Well, we I think we got someting from New Zealand House but I can't remember what it was.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm mmhm.
F1195 No we came out here fairly empty-handed but with a certain amount of money in the bank.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And// Bob had a job and I got a job within about a year.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 So that was alright and then we got this house.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 So we've been here for forty-
F1189 Forty-six //years mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //six years, yes.//
F1189 What did you think of it then when you arrived? //Mm.//
F1195 //I liked it.// //Well when we arrived we came on the train from Christchurch.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //At the railway station in Dunedin there was people to meet us.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 //There was the Professor and his wife, various other Physics staff and their wives and children and dogs even.// //And//
F1189 //[laugh]// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //they too-took us ba-ba-back to the flat that they'd booked for us.// //And there in the cupboard were jams and bottled fruit and something to eat.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //So they looked after us very well, much better than we'd expected.//
F1189 How did you get overseas then at that time? And what year was it you left?
F1195 Sixty, [third participant confirms sixty-one] Sixty-one.
F1189 Uh-huh. //Mm.//
F1195 //How did we ha- how did we get overseas at that time?// We went in the boat.
F1189 Right mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //[?]Orkadays[/?] no.// [third participant contradicts this] No. No. I know eh. [third participant says he's forgotten the name] Cruiseliner anyway. //[third participant says it was packed with people]//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 Packed with people, yes. And we landed at Christchurch and got the train down.
F1189 How long did it take then, Evelyn?
F1195 Oh about three weeks. But it was alright.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 I mean cause you knew it was short, it wasn't, //and there was quite a good pr-programme of entertainments organised on the boat.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// What kind of entertainment would that be? //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Oh playing bridge, playing deck quoits and talks by various people.// And it was quite well organised. There w- cause there was, we stopped at a lot of ports on the way.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And that was good.
F1189 Were there ehm oh did you get off at any //ports?//
F1195 //Yes.// //Oh yes we got off at quite a few ports yes.//
F1189 //Did you? Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //So we s-saw a bit of the world then.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 That was good.
F1189 And had you been abroad by that //time?//
F1195 //Oh// //no I hadn't.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 [third participant clarifies that speaker had been to Europe] //I'd been to Europe on holidays.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //But I hadn't really been really overseas apart from Europe, you know.// So it was all quite new to me.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 Quite exciting.
F1189 Mmhm. When you were on the ship then ehm were there lots of people like yourselves? //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Oh yes we made quite a few friends on the ship of people.// And we st-still have kept in touch with a couple of them.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //Oh yes there's a lot of people, and it was a time of emigration from s- from S-Scotland.// //This is what Brooking's working r-research is on.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Who emigrated from Scotland to New Zealand and why.//
F1189 Mmhm. Mmhm.
F1195 And this was very interesting.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 [third participant says that a lot of young people had ten-dollar passages] Yes, they did yes.
F1189 Mmhm. I was about to ask you //if you//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 paid for your own
F1195 Yes we did. //Yes.//
F1189 //passage?//
F1195 We did //yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// Uh-huh. Or was that part of //the//
F1195 //No, I don't I can't really remember.//
F1189 job arrangement?
F1195 [third participant confirms that the university paid for it] Yes yes. I can't remember. [third participant explains that the university also paid to have the car brought over] Oh I see. //Yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// So did you bring your car over //with you?//
F1195 //We did yes.// //We did yes.//
F1189 //Amazing.// //[giggle]//
F1195 //[third participant confirms it was a brand new mini]// //Yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //It was good.//
F1189 Oh emblem of the //sixties.//
F1195 //Yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //And// sixties Britishness //actually.//
F1195 //Britishness// //yes oh yes definitely.//
F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// Were there many minis here when you arrived? //Mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //There were quite a few, a lot more than there are these days, yes.//
F1189 Mmhm. //So,//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 in that luggage that you brought with you, I mean I know
F1195 Mm.
F1189 you can't bring too much but did you bring your books? //Mm mm.//
F1195 //No I we- I brought a few science books I think but that was about the lot.// And Bob had quite a few
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //physics books but that was about the lot.// //I don't think e- don't think we even had much music with us, did we, when we came, when we landed.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm.
F1195 We have a lot now.
F1189 Mm. So there's nothing very meaningful, a book that you you wouldn't have wanted to leave behind?
F1195 No, I don't think so. No.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Bob started playing his fiddle. When did you start playing the fiddle? [third participant answers that he was given a fiddle in nineteen-fifty or so but didn't play it much] //And he brought that,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //he brought that with him.// [third participant explains that he bought a decent fiddle last time they were in Scotland] And, //And//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 I brought I bought this harp in London. //And I had it out.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// But I should just say there's //a harp in the room.//
F1195 //Yes that's// //right, yes.//
F1189 //And a piano.// //[giggle] Mmhm.//
F1195 //The the piano was my m-m-mother's in Scotland so I had it sent. That was the only thing I wanted// //of her possessions.//
F1189 //Did you? Uh-huh uh-huh.// Uh-huh.
F1195 Yep.
F1189 So so your, those were the things that were important //to you then?//
F1195 //Yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //Right// Uh-huh.
F1195 Rather than books I'm afraid.
F1189 Was there a library on the ship? //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes, there would be, yes I'm sure there was.// //I haven't a clue. I don't think I ever used it.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //No, we didn't do much reading on the bo- ship, we did a lot of exercise// //and//
F1189 //Right.//
F1195 music.
F1189 Playing tennis? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Playing, playing tennis yes//
F1189 Mmhm. //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //These deck quoits with little rope ring things, yes, we did, we did that a lot.// We became quite good at that.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I think there was also a swimming pool some place about.//
F1189 How did you get news during that voyage? Three weeks long.
F1195 Well, ah news. //I don't think we had//
F1189 //Or didn't you?//
F1195 I don't think we had newspapers.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 No, I don't think there was much in the way of n-news except on radio. So I don't think there'd be much apart from that. //There wouldn't be television I don't think at that stage.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 When did television start?
F1189 Television had started by then. //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Oh had it started by then, yes.//
F1189 Did you have a television back in //Kilburn?//
F1195 //No.// //No we didn't, no we didn't, we never had television.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 M-my parents had a television
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And// //I reckon that it killed all attempts at conversation, so I decided I'm not having a television.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 So we still don't have a television.
F1189 Don't you?
F1195 No.
F1189 Now you come to mention it there there is no television //in view.//
F1195 //That's right, that's// //right yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// And,
F1195 Yes. //[inaudible].//
F1189 //it th-that's a// a a conviction,
F1195 Well it's a,
F1189 position you've taken? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //yes that's right yes.//
F1189 Mm. You've never thought about getting one, never been tempted? //Mmhm mm mm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well we've not been tempted no cause of the the ones that we've seen have been mainly rubbishy programmes which you wouldn't want to l-listen to anyway, look at.//
F1189 What about the radio then, Evelyn? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //We use the radio quite a bit yes.// I do like
F1189 Uh-huh.
F1195 Th-Thurs- is this Thursday? //Tonight there's a science programme from nine until ten that's usually worth listening to, we usually listen to that.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Do you listen to any drama //on the radio?//
F1195 //Not very much,// //no, it's mainly the s-science programme.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 And we have a music evening every Wednesday and we have friends around.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //That was just last night, they play some music.// Usually Scottish traditional music //because one of them's a piper.//
F1189 //Yes uh-huh.// Uh-huh? //My goodness.//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 It's just as well you've got a big garden. //here then [giggle] uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Just as well we've a big garden yes, yes, yes, yup.//
F1189 That's very interesting then that you've never succumbed to this sort of //twentieth//
F1195 //No .//
F1189 century obsession we have with the visual media.
F1195 Yes I know. //Well if you can play music yourself what's the point of,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //I mean we have played for Scottish country dancing for about a year or so.//
F1189 Mmhm. Do you spend a lot of time reading then //rather than...?//
F1195 //No.//
F1189 No.
F1195 No not really. But Bob he spends a lot of time reading the New Scientist, //which he gets every month.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 [third participant clarifies once a week] Every week. //And,//
F1189 //Do you// get any ehm //magazines such as that?//
F1195 //I get s- eh// //magazine eh the one I get is "What Doctors Don't Tell You",//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 which is published in London.
F1189 Right. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //And it's// about, in favour of alternative medicine //things.//
F1189 //Right.// And are you keen on that? //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Not really no.// //A friend of Bob's gave me these two books to read as I was going away//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Oh,//
F1195 //They say,//
F1189 this is a door stopper. //[laugh]//
F1195 //I know.// They say, //uhm I don't know what, I've started one of them but I sha-sha-sha- shan't be able to finish them.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// They've got slightly tongue in cheek //titles eh//
F1195 //Oh very ton-// //very much tongue in cheek yes yes yes yes yes yes.//
F1189 //one called "Just a Little Prick" and the other called "From One Prick to Another". [laugh]//
F1195 So. //That's, yes.//
F1189 //By Peter and Hilary Butler//
F1195 Yes.
F1189 And I take it they're about //about... Right, yes right uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Inoculation, vaccination, vaccines yes and they're strongly against this.//
F1189 Right. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Health fanatics.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And they don't seem to know very much about anything. They just enthuse about things.//
F1189 Yeah well I think you might have a bit of trouble getting //all the way through that.//
F1195 //Yes yes I know.// //I'm trying. I have started. That's all I can say.//
F1189 //[laugh] Mmhm.// Mmhm. Now you, as you said when you came here ehm got involved with, //yes yes uh-huh.//
F1195 //Gaelic things yes yes.//
F1189 Ehm ehm tell me again, you started up a Gaelic society, is that //correct?//
F1195 //Well,// //no, we we joined a Gaelic society shortly after we arrived and I found a elderly man from the Isle of Lewis over there who was keen to have people learn the language.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //So he he used to go along there every week and he taught me enough//
F1189 Right. //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //to join the choir, there was a Gaelic choir in those days.//
F1189 Right. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //So we sing songs in Gaelic.//
F1189 Right uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //And I taught Gaelic for a whi- a few years.//
F1189 What about ehm the Burns Society and the //Caledonian society?//
F1195 //We we were thinking of joining// //the Burns society.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //We went along several times to the Burns society and at that stage it was very... how shall I describe the Burns society, Bob?// [third participant suggests stuffed] //Stuffed, yes stuffed.//
F1189 //Mm. [laugh]// //[laugh]//
F1195 //Formal.//
F1189 Uh-huh. //Mm mm.//
F1195 //And not very interesting. We really preferred the Gaelic society.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Cause the Burns society was only looking backwards,
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //whereas the Gaelic society was looking a bit forwards.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Right uh-huh.//
F1195 //But the Gaelic society didn't last as long as the Burns society.// [third participant explains it collapsed after 125 years] Yes. //And I wrote a his-his-history book for the Gaelic society.//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh.// Is that because of... well younger people are not ehm taking //part in mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //N- exactly yes.// You're interested in books. I've, I wrote a history book on the Gaelic //society,//
F1189 //Right uh-huh.// //I should have a look at that later on mmhm.//
F1195 //when I, yes yes.//
F1189 Ehm what was your job ehm Evelyn, when you came here?
F1195 Oh well I taught //at the o- University in the old home science school, textile chemistry.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 So it was still applied chemistry.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //But I hadn't taught at all before, ever.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And I was very dubious about whether I would be able to teach and would like it.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //But in fact I did like it.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I was able to teach. //So that worked. So I stayed there for fifteen years.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //So that was quite good.//
F1189 Ehm you left then to do //something else?//
F1195 //I left then// //and I eh we had a disagreement about eh with the staff.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 They started disagreeing with the staff and so I left. And then after that I did a degree in economics,
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //which I'd been wanting to do for some time.// And also did some units in philosophy of science
F1189 Mm.
F1195 and world music.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And that's about the lot I think.// //And that, it meant that I could, when I went up to Wellington in a plane, I could sit beside some businessman and ask him some sensible questions about his business which I was never able to do before.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm. Right.// //So.//
F1195 //And// //able to understand articles in the newspapaper that I couldn't understand before.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //So that was good, worth doing.//
F1189 Uh-huh. //So you've kept on educating yourself.//
F1195 //Yes yes.//
F1189 You must have had to read a good deal //ehm to do that.//
F1195 //Oh, yes yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// Uh-huh. These would be textbooks //and eh learned stuff, yes.//
F1195 //Textbooks yes and journals, economic journals yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh. Is there any economics journals you still get?
F1195 No.
F1189 O-Oof the more popular, like say the //like the...//
F1195 //No.// Business Review.
F1189 yes. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes no.// There's nothing there, //no.//
F1189 //Or// indeed the Economist.
F1195 The Economist, no no.
F1189 You don't do any of //that any more.//
F1195 //No no.// //I just teach, dancing.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Uh-huh. Did you ever get any of these journals? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //No, I was never entirely convinced about economic theory.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I thought it was like a game of bridge.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //Very interesting at the time, stimulating, exasperating and... but had no connection with the real world,// //I thought.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 I didn't even learn what happens inside a bank.
F1189 Right. //[laugh]//
F1195 //I know it was not good enough.//
F1189 Perhaps you should have. //[laugh]//
F1195 //Perhaps I should have, yes.// //No, it was//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //difficult, difficult t- when it was so divorced from real life.// //I still feel that way about economics.//
F1189 //Uh-huh mm mm.// //Mm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //That it's alright, it's looking at a mountain sort of from one angle but it's not looking at it in three dimensions,//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 you know?
F1189 Now what about your Scottish societies ehm do you think they're a good idea for people who move to a country like this?
F1195 Well it seems to be inevitable,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 whether it's good or not, but
F1189 Mm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //most of them have lots of money. They're very good at raising money.// //They're not very good at inter-interesting young folks and keeping the society going.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //And the Gaelic society collapsed about two years ago, the Burns society collapsed y-, well you were there.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And// //I don't know about the Caledonian society goes in mainly for games and r-races and things.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 And I don't think there's anything else
F1189 Mm.
F1195 here, Bob is there anything else? [third participant confirms that the Caledonian Society has monthly ballroom dances] Monthly dances, yes. And there's, //you see the young folks are not interested and we've been finding that in terms of Gaelic, the interest in Gaelic seems to skip a generation.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And by the time they get to grandparents they're interested in their grandchildren having a wee bit of Gaelic.//
F1189 Mm. //Mm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //And they try and teach them a wee bit of Gaelic but then their parents, their, the generation in between has no interest in Gaelic,//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //and wouldn't, some of them won't even s-speak it at home.// //So this will must have an effect on their children.//
F1189 //Mm.// I was thinking really of the kind of social forum that they provide for, for other //migrants//
F1195 //Yes,// yes.
F1189 t-to meet with one another. And whether or not that's a //that's a good thing.//
F1195 //I don't think it's going to be enough// //because I don't know what numbers are for mi-migration from Scotland.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //But I doubt if it's contin-continuing the flood that it used to be.//
F1189 Mmhm mm mmhm mm. //Mm mmmmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //There used to be a lot of people coming out, and in fact the Gaelic society used to look after people from the islands who came here just on the boats, take them off the boats and give them an evening meal and things of this sort.//
F1189 Now you must have learned to read in Gaelic then? //So so//
F1195 //Just a wee bit yes.//
F1189 what what did you like to read?
F1195 Oh Gaelic books?
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Not too difficult.
F1189 Uh-huh.
F1195 Especially with ones by, no I forget the eh his name. Right, he was a phil-philosphilosophical bent,
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 and he also writes in English //I think.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 And he writes deep, dark, introspective stuff.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And I've got quite a few of his books here. Ah where are we now? No that's not that's not him. Where have the books eh that I was reading. I've got quite a few eh books on teaching Gaelic because at one stage I taught Gaelic. Here we are. Iain Mac a' Ghobhainn.
F1189 Oh yes uh-huh.
F1195 Did you, have you heard of him?
F1189 I've heard of him but I I don't speak G- //Gaelic so//
F1195 //It's// //Iain,//
F1189 //obviously// //Uh-huh mmhm.//
F1195 //he's got an Eng-English name, English.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Iain... Goodsir Smith, Goodsir Smith is that right?// Goodsir Smith, is there an Iain Goodsir Smith who writes books?
F1189 I don't know //to be honest with you.//
F1195 //Yes well// //I think th-th-ththat he's, I've read er quite a few of his books.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Right and are these favourites then, they're quite short. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes they are, yes.//
F1189 And this is poetry. //Mmhm mmhm uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //This is poetry mainly, yes but eh he's also written a lot of books which are very// //very//
F1189 //What about,//
F1195 Scottish shall we say? //Yeah.//
F1189 //I'll wait til you're sitting down again, Evelyn mm.//
F1195 Oh here's another one. Iain Mac a' Ghobhainn.
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //That's a a novel.//
F1189 Mmhm. Ah right uh-huh.
F1195 Yes there was. //Yes.//
F1189 //Ah right so// so he writes eh, prose as well //as uh poetry?//
F1195 //Oh yes he's written a lot.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And he's well known for his English writing as well as his Gaelic.//
F1189 Right uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm. [laugh]//
F1195 //So he's quite, quite a a famous character but he writes very depressing stuff I'm afraid.//
F1189 Characteristically Scottish then. //[laugh]//
F1195 //Very Scottish, very Scottish yes.//
F1189 Now what about the likes of ehm Sorley MacLean //and ah.//
F1195 //Oh Sorley// //MacLean, yes I've got quite a few books by Sorley MacLean yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And I've seen that video of Sorley MacLean, which you'll probably have seen.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And something I read recently was that that Irish chap in that film had been nominated for a a Nobel prize but he hadn't got it. What was his name? He's in that video.
F1189 A poet?
F1195 A poet yes.
F1189 I should know that. //Ehm//
F1195 //Yes, you should know that.//
F1189 and it'll come back to me if I don't //think about it. [laugh]//
F1195 //Tonight that's, I know.// //That's right.//
F1189 //Ehm// uh-huh uh-huh.
F1195 And he wrote one
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 h-he wrote some play about James Westeren, Westerner or something.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 No I can't remember //just now.//
F1189 //Now where// do you get these, these //these l-little Ga-Gaelic books?//
F1195 //Oh I order them from S-Scotland usually.//
F1189 Do you? //Right.//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh so //they've got to come out here.//
F1195 //There's a s- there's a// //m-magazine that ehm promotes Scottish things,//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //which I get and I've ordered quite a few books from them.//
F1189 Now what magazine is that? //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well there's one called, there used to be a one produced by somebody up in North Isle called Tinne, T-I-N-N-E.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And then there was another one from which I got this one which I can't remember.//
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Yes, this was a a very interesting book. It was about this, 'aon' is
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //'one' in Gaelic.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm Right uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //And he was a man who lived on his own. He was a hermit so this is a book about a hermit [inaudible].// And this was very good.
F1189 Now what about the more popular Scottish magazines in English?
F1195 Well no, //I used to get//
F1189 //I have seen around Dunedin.//
F1195 Scot-Scotch Field, Sco-Scottish //Field, I used to get that.//
F1189 //Scottish Field uh-huh.// Uh-huh. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Then I decided it was becoming a bit poncy?//
F1189 Mmhm. //[laugh]//
F1195 //So eh stop-stopped getting that.// //So we don't get any of the rest I don't think.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// //The Scots Magazine?//
F1195 //We use-// //Scots Magazine my parents s-sent me the Scots Magazine for years and I got s- names of some of these books out of, out of that, probably yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mm.// Did you enjoy getting the Scots Magazine //sent?//
F1195 //Yes I// //quite enjoyed getting the Scots Magazine yes yes.//
F1189 //Mm mm mmhm mmhm.// Did you get any newspapers or anything?
F1195 Well I get a new-newspaper from my brother, called the Alyth Voice,
F1189 Mm.
F1195 which is about Alyth.
F1189 Mm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And I don't remember any of the people there now.// //So its...//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//
F1195 //but I was interested in this committee that's s-set up to look into sustainability and doing energy audits of all the houses for free.// //That was really very good.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //So I, in a way I think that Britain's more ahead of New Zealand in terms of sustainability.//
F1189 Yet New Zealand has a reputation for being a very ecological place.
F1195 Ecological and green but slow to move.
F1189 Mmhm. I have noticed how //fond New Zealanders are of their cars.//
F1195 //Yes yes.// //Oh yes yes.//
F1189 //[laugh]// Uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Very fond of cars,// //and money.//
F1189 //Uh.// Mmhm. Do you think they are slow to move here //compared//
F1195 //Yes I// do yes.
F1189 to //the UK?//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Why is that?//
F1195 //Very.// I think it's that we're not keen, it's the t- called the tall poppy syndrome.
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And, you know how if you have a tall poppy you take its head off? //Shoot it down or something?//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And I think this is quite prevalent here// //to have the tall poppy syndrome.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. Mm. Again would you see that as being any kind of legacy of of //the types of, yes.//
F1195 //Presbyterianism.//
F1189 Uh-huh.
F1195 Yes because remember John Knox and his wise hat,
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 that's, that's //another... that's right.//
F1189 //Got to be modest.// //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //You've got to be modest, yes.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //And not stand out no-no-not wear a new sh- a new hat to church.// //Yes.//
F1189 //[laugh]// Now do you think th- that those kind of stereotypes in a way of Scots, eh have you suffered from them personally?
F1195 No, not really but I think there's, most of them have slight bit of truth in them.
F1189 Mm. Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //But no I haven't suffered.//
F1189 Like the meanness factor //or ehm//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 that kind of thing?
F1195 No, because I can joke about being mean.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And everybody says I've got an accent but of course they're wrong because it's only other people who have an accent.//
F1189 [laugh] You've kept your Scottish accent.
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Are you conscious of //that? Mm.//
F1195 //Yes.// When I talk to somebody else, if they're English or American,
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //they start away down, if they're Scottish they start up here.//
F1189 Uh-huh. //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //You know?// //I judge people by their accent I'm afraid.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// [laugh] //Negatively//
F1195 //Which is very naughty.//
F1189 or otherwise? //[laugh] Uh-huh.//
F1195 //Negatively or otherwise, yes, which is very naughty.//
F1189 What do you think about the New Zealand accent then? //Mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //Well when I came here at first and got a job, I used to sit in the staff room and listen to the conversation.// //And I couldn't understand how such nice, intelligent, well-educated people could speak so badly,//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm.
F1195 have such an appalling accent. //There was one man in the staff who spoke nicely, discovered he came from Motherwell,//
F1189 //Mm.// [laugh]
F1195 eventually.
F1189 Well he would do //wouldn't he?//
F1195 //That's right.// //Yes.//
F1189 //[laugh]// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Nice softly spoken chap yes.//
F1189 Uh-huh. Now have you ever been back then //to the UK?//
F1195 //Yes, seven times.//
F1189 mmhm //Seven times?//
F1195 //Seven times.// //Seven times.//
F1189 //That's a good// many journeys //actually I think you've got the//
F1195 //It's a good many journeys.// //Well yes yes yes.//
F1189 //record for the people I've I've interviewed.// Uh-huh. //Uh-huh when was the first time?//
F1195 //I'm not going again.//
F1189 Oh right.
F1195 It was sixty-seven.
F1189 Mm. So that was fairly soon afterwards? //Mm mmhm mmhm uh-huh.//
F1195 //Soon after, yes, about six years after we'd arrived here.//
F1189 And had you seen any changes then in in Britain when you got //back?//
F1195 //Well,// //not very much. I was still appalled at the class consciousness.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And I know that one year we went to Manchester and we were there for six weeks before anybody even invited us home for a cup of tea.//
F1189 Right. //Uh-huh.//
F1195 //And I thought this was awful.// //And that really hurt, you know, the sort of self-centered greediness of of people.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Mm. //Mm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And I think that the class consciousness in Scotland is still probably pretty bad.// I think it would still hit me when I went back.
F1189 Do you think then being out here, cause people have spoken to me //about this before,//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 ehm you're inclined to welcome people who make the journey. //It's a long journey here//
F1195 //Yes it's a long// //journey, yes.//
F1189 //ehm.// But that's not necessarily reciprocated //the opposite way.//
F1195 //That's right yes yes.// Yes yes. //Yes, no I reached a stage when I felt I was not going back again. If anybody wanted to come and see me they j- they should jolly well come.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mm mmhm mm.//
F1195 You know?
F1189 And do they?
F1195 No.
F1189 Mm mm. How do you feel about that? //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Well I just can't, I I can't help it. I'm not going again.// //I've done my travelling.//
F1189 //[laugh] Uh-huh.// Now you've got a good number of books here. //And you say//
F1195 //Yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //you've brought your Gaelic books back,//
F1195 Yes.
F1189 back w- or you've had them sent //from Scotland.//
F1195 //Yes we've yes we// g-got most things sent in Scotland.
F1189 What about ehm eh more general books eh.
F1195 More general books? //Well we've got books on tramping, lots of books on tramping,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //eh here and Australia.// Lots of books on dancing.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And lots of books on music over there.//
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 And that's about the lot really. //Oh//
F1189 //Wha-//
F1195 a p-person we've been enjoying recently is Brian Turner.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Have you read him?
F1189 That name rings a bell, tell //me why?//
F1195 //He writes// //poe-poe-po-poetry.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// Uh-huh.
F1195 And what was his book called, Bob? You got a copy of it the other day. [third participant suggests Into the Wilder] "Into the Wilder Country". //It's over there. He's going//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //I do see a a//
F1195 //to send it to his...// //Yes yes.//
F1189 //university bookshop bag over there. Is that where you buy your books?//
F1195 That's right yes. [third participant tries to remember book title] //"Into the Wider World".//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 He's very good. He feels the same way as we do about landscape
F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //and space.// //It's really a book about fishing but that's just an excuse for getting into the wild.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 And that's very good I think.
F1189 Now I have noticed that books are quite expensive in New Zealand. //Right uh-huh.//
F1195 //Well they have to be sent from either Britain or A- or America.// And that's why. //I'm not sure that the book shops are making a lot more than they should do.//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 But anyway. [third participant says that he thinks the university bookshop is expensive] //University.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 [third participant says they're not expensive compared with Britain] That was, that was, that was forty-four dollars in a gallery place where I was that... Yes forty-four, the same.
F1189 Well what I've noticed is ehm eh general fiction [cough] in the UK may may cost you maybe seven ninety-nine //for a book//
F1195 //Oh no.//
F1189 but here they could be thirty //dollars.//
F1195 //Oh yes.// //It would be, yes it would be yes, yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// So more expensive. //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //M-much more expensive and this this discrepancy is going to get worse with the oil.//
F1189 Mmhm. [inhale] Do you ehm eh do you ever read any fiction in English or...
F1195 Well that was fiction.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 And the [third participant clarifies that these philosophical musings might be considered fiction but that they were real events]
F1189 Mm.
F1195 And the other p- other person we've read recently is Bill Bryson.
F1189 Oh yes uh-huh.
F1195 And we don't much like him, we st- I don't much like him and ah Ian didn't much like him either. [third participant suggests Tim Flannery] Tim Flannery. //Yep.//
F1189 //Yes uh-huh.//
F1195 Bill Bryson I thought was affected. He was looking for ways of being clever the whole //time.//
F1189 //Well,// //he's quirky, isn't he? Ah eh//
F1195 //It was irritating. Quirky yes.// //And this, yes.//
F1189 //He's actually quite popular with young people.//
F1195 I know. But h- I I I found him irritating.
F1189 My son's a fan.
F1195 Mm.
F1189 [laugh] //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I found him irritating because he was looking for ways of being clever the whole time I thought.// And this just annoyed me after a while.
F1189 Now which Bryson was it you read?
F1195 Bill Bryson. Eh, [third participant clarifies the book is called Notes from a Small Island] //Yes yes.//
F1189 //Right.// Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.
F1195 And who was the other chap, Hunter, [third participant confirms Hunter Thompson, whose books they didn't get on with] Hunter Thompson we d- we we just couldn't stand //him at all.//
F1189 //Oh no that's a bit// strange.
F1195 Well I'm //glad you say so because//
F1189 //[laugh]// //uh-huh mmhm//
F1195 //w- I w-we s- of opened the first couple of pages and that was enough, we just// decided it wasn't... [third participant clarifies that he read a whole chapter] //Oh you didn't read a full chapter.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Now what about ehm eh, New Zealand authors then? I mean there are //quite a few now yes mmhm.//
F1195 //Janet Frame, yes there're quite a few.// And, there's one Fleur Adcock is there s- not the same //Fleur that we know. [third participant confirms Fleur Adcock]//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //She writes poetry I think,// more than... poetry yes, yes I've I've read a f- a couple of books by Janet Frame.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //[third participant comments on doom and gloom books]// [laugh] Yes you do yes. And what was the one about the man who m-mistook his wife for a hat? [third participant clarifies that it's about musicophilia] Music- musicophilia?
F1189 Mm. //So, would you say then...?//
F1195 //[third participant confirms author's name is Sacks]// //Oliver Sacks, yes.//
F1189 //Oliver// //Sacks yes uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes, Oliver Sacks yes.//
F1189 Would you say then you're mainly reading non-fiction? //It sounds that way uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes yes yes.//
F1189 Eh and you like books on ecology //and the environment ehm.//
F1195 //Yes yes the// //sustainability and music, yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm uh-huh.// Uh-huh. //Ehm,//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 do you take a newspaper, //Evelyn?//
F1195 //Yes we// //do, the Otago Daily Times,//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Right.
F1195 which we think, I think is very good.
F1189 Mmhm. Mmhm.
F1195 And where do we see sometimes bits out off the Guardian and the Observer? We-. [third participant explains that the Daily Times quotes from them] Yes, yes. [third participant asks if they know Gwynne Dyer, who is syndicated in New Zealand] Gwynne Dyer, he's very good.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I think, he was out here
F1189 Mm.
F1195 last year and he sp-spoke and we went to hear him, that was excellent.
F1189 Mmhm mmhm.
F1195 He's a, compared with
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 him, I'm not a pessimist at all. //He was very pessimistic, very realistic about things.//
F1189 //Mm. [laugh]// Now the Otago Daily Times I think is a good newspaper. //It'a very local newspaper.//
F1195 //Oh yes.// //Well it doesn't claim to be anything other. It's sometimes got pages on world news,//
F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 which are usually very skimpy. //[third participant mentions World Focus section and explains its coverage]//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 Yes which is better yes. Yes well it is a Scottish place.
F1189 Would you, how do you get your world news then?
F1195 From the newspaper, from the newspaper.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 World news.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 Eh, //[?]it's the only piece[/?].//
F1189 //So eh that's// in the weekly supplement? //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //That's the, it's a weekly supplement yes yes that's all our, well yes.//
F1189 And maybe on the radio?
F1195 On radio perhaps yes and the news programme yes. [third participant explains that some people get all their news from television not newspapers] ODT. //Yes.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //Yes// //Yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// Do you listen to the the BBC World Service //at all?//
F1195 //Well I// //I do yes sometimes when you're out on a Monday evening there's some yes,//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //yes that are quite good yes.//
F1189 And ehm would you have ever wanted to go home then, Evelyn?
F1195 Not if it means the journey. //If I could just press a button, I would press the button.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 But the journey no.
F1189 I mean to return permanently. //Has that ever been a consideration?//
F1195 //No no.// Not really.
F1189 Mm. //You settled here.//
F1195 //[third participant comments that speaker's sister was surprised she didn't want to return on retirement]//
F1189 Mmhm mmhm mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes yes.// //Yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes she was.// //Probably yes yes.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 Yes.
F1189 So, and yet you say you feel still Scottish.
F1195 Oh yes, //still Scottish yes.//
F1189 //Uh-huh.// So how does that place you then as someone who's lived here for a very long time in New Zealand,
F1195 It just places //me right here.//
F1189 //and doesn't want to go// back to the UK?
F1195 No, doesn't want to go back.
F1189 So wh- how would you describe your identity then?
F1195 Unsettled. //Well.//
F1189 //[laugh]// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //And, dis-di-dis-disconcerted?// //Is that the right use,//
F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //right right. [third participant suggests disconnected]// //Disconnected, no not disconnected.//
F1189 //Mmhm.//
F1195 No ehm, //unresolved perhaps would be better.//
F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm.
F1195 There's no easy answer.
F1189 Mmhm.
F1195 I don't want to go back, I want to stay here but I still always w-will feel Scottish. There's nothing wrong with feeling Scottish. //It's just...//
F1189 //Do you think// that's made easier for you in that the particular environment of //Dunedin,//
F1195 //Oh yes.// Yes. //But you see but it's//
F1189 //with its Scottish societies and so forth.// //Mm mm.//
F1195 //the Scottishness of Dunedin is dwindling rapidly. It's just about gone.// Would you agree, Bob? [third participant agrees, and notes that they still meet Scottish music enthusiasts] Yes.
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //They still have pipe bands.// And we have a good friend who's a piper. //They still do a lot of Scottish country dancing. They do a lot of highland dancing.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //And that's about the lot,// I think. [third participant comments that many place names have Gaelic in them] Yes. //The old names,//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 the farms etcetra. //[third participant notes the place name Lesmahagow near Balclutha]//
F1189 //Mm.// Mm. //Oh yes [laugh] I've noticed the place names certainly yeah uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//
F1195 //Yes yes, the place names, place names and the street names in Dunedin.// //Well yes.//
F1189 //Now,// as Scottish culture if you like, or the influence of it here declined,
F1195 Yes.
F1189 there's been, a resurgence more generally across this nation o-of indigenous culture. //And eh how do you feel about that?//
F1195 //Yes, yes undoubtedly.// I think it's good.
F1189 Mm. //Mm mm.//
F1195 //Because I think that the more people who learn a second language, I don't care what it is, the better.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Cause we need to learn a lot more about each other.// //[third participant comments that people contact them to find out how to pronounce Gaelic names]//
F1189 //Mmhm.// Mm.
F1195 A child yes.
F1189 Mm mmhm mmhm. Mm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //A low level of interest but// //it is only a low level of interest.//
F1189 //[inhale]// What about ehm the Maori language then? //Ehm mm mm.//
F1195 //That's good. I think that, i-it doesn't have to be taught in schools yet I don't think.// //But I think i-i-it will come.//
F1189 //Mm.// And you approve of that?
F1195 In junior schools yes. [third participant says he has no interest in practice in Maori] //Mm.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm.
F1195 Oh I don't know enough to say about it.
F1189 What about you then, Evelyn? Have you got //an interest in it at all?//
F1195 //Eh// //no not at all no.//
F1189 //Or would ever want to learn it?// //Mmhm.//
F1195 //No.// Nope. //No I just got a interest in the Gaelic language, that a few people will always want to know a little bit about Gaelic.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm.// [inhale] I just wondered if you'd ever read anything about the
F1195 [inhale] //Yes I've r-//
F1189 //history of New Zealand,// //and eh//
F1195 //well I've read something about//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //h-how the S-Scottish language is d- the wi- the Gaelic language is doing and the Welsh languages being [?]graphed[/?].//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //And the Welsh languages doing very well.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //And the Scottish language is not doing at all well,// //because of lack of status.//
F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm.//
F1195 //If you can have a status, a sort of legal status whereas you must have a little bit of Welsh to to be a doctor,// and that's that is half the battle.
F1189 [inhale] Now I've only got a couple more questions //for you.//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 Ehm, one's an easy one which is, do you consider yourself a reader?
F1195 No, I don't no.
F1189 No?
F1195 No. //Not compared with other folks.//
F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mm mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //I mean there's one of our friends comes in here every week and she's always got about three books that she's trying to,// and she really reads.
F1189 Mmhm. [inhale] Does she ever give any //of these books//
F1195 //Yes.//
F1189 to you? //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //Yes qu-quite quite a few of them yes.//
F1189 And what kinds of books are they?
F1195 Oh the o- the one she, with the Brian T-Turner. //And, Bill Bryson and Hunter//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm.//
F1195 //Thompson.//
F1189 But you choose to read in in Gaelic though.
F1195 Yes.
F1189 Is that a way of sort of maintaining a link with //ehm where you came from?//
F1195 //Yes and als- yes it is.//
F1189 And yet it was never your language. //Mmhm mmhm.//
F1195 //No it wasn't my language, no.//
F1189 So how do you account for that? //[laugh]//
F1195 //It's genes.// //You don't have to account for genes, you can just say "genes, genes did it".//
F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh. Right.// Do you think it's a way of of asserting your Scottishness still?
F1195 [inhale] Well I think teaching //Gaelic was certainly a way of asserting my Scottishness.//
F1189 //Mm mm.// //Mm.//
F1195 //Teaching folk dancing, I'm not sure about that,//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mmhm.//
F1195 //whether that's, anything to do with me being Scottish or not.//
F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//
F1195 //Probably not, I don't think.// //It's just me enjoying teaching.//
F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm mmhm. [inhale] And the last question is if you could sum up for me, this one's a bit harder, if you could sum up for me what reading then has meant in your life.
F1195 [exhale] //I think it's encouraged my Scottishness, shall we say.//
F1189 //Mm.//
F1195 I think that'll be the best way of putting it. Especially people like eh Sorley MacLean and Iain Mac a' Ghobhainn. //Very good.//
F1189 //Very good then.// //We'll//
F1195 //Okay.//
F1189 We'll finish there. Can I thank you though //for the recording,//
F1195 //Yes, quite alright.//
F1189 very very much, Evelyn.

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APA Style:

Interview with Evelyn Entwistle for Scottish Readers Remember Project. 2023. In The Scottish Corpus of Texts & Speech. Glasgow: University of Glasgow. Retrieved 3 December 2023, from

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The Scottish Corpus of Texts & Speech. 2023. Glasgow: University of Glasgow.


Information about Document 1678

Interview with Evelyn Entwistle for Scottish Readers Remember Project


Audio audience

For gender Mixed
Audience size N/A

Audio awareness & spontaneity

Speaker awareness N/A
Degree of spontaneity N/A

Audio footage information

Year of recording 2009
Recording person id 1189
Size (min) 113
Size (mb) 437

Audio setting

Recording venue Interviewee's home
Geographic location of speech Dunedin

Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers

Speakers knew each other N/A

Audio transcription information

Transcriber id 1219
Year of transcription 2009
Year material recorded 2009
Word count 19719

Audio type



Participant details

Participant id 1189
Gender Female
Decade of birth 1950
Educational attainment University
Age left school 16
Occupation Research Assistant
Place of birth Ayr
Region of birth S Ayr
Birthplace CSD dialect area Ayr
Country of birth Scotland
Place of residence Glasgow
Region of residence Glasgow
Residence CSD dialect area Gsw
Country of residence Scotland
Father's occupation Journeyman joiner
Father's place of birth Ayr
Father's region of birth S Ayr
Father's birthplace CSD dialect area Ayr
Father's country of birth Scotland
Mother's occupation Domestic
Mother's place of birth Ayr
Mother's region of birth S Ayr
Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area Ayr
Mother's country of birth Scotland


Participant details

Participant id 1195