| M608 |
Okay, Jim McGonigal, thanks for, very much for er coming in to talk about "Passage" today.
er this was published, wh- in the past week or so? |
| M078 |
Yes.
uh-huh |
| M608 |
It was
//launched at the// |
| M078 |
//erm// |
| M608 |
Scottish Poetry Library. |
| M078 |
Last week, and yes er Hamish usually br-brings things not hot off the press, but wet off the press.
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
And if you're lucky you get one where th- the ink has dried. |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
So, er no it was fine, er yeah, during the summer I think.
And er it's a production of poets really, in er in the sense that er Gerry Cambridge, the the the poet, he did the typesetting, and Joe Murray, also a poet, he did the the cover design, which is very good. |
| M608 |
It is.
//It's er// |
| M078 |
//And.// |
| M608 |
Paddy's Milestone. |
| M078 |
Yes, that's right, or as Edwin Morgan said, Paddy's Hump.
I'd never heard that before.
//And er// |
| M608 |
//I'd never heard//
that; that must
//be a Glasgow one.// |
| M078 |
//[inaudible]//
Yes, and they seem to be quite sectarian too,
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
about the, sort of, dishevelled, crippled Irish, as they were.
er but, yeah, that is, must be a Glasgow one; I've never heard it. |
| M608 |
Paddy's Hump? |
| M078 |
Paddy's Hump. It's horrible. |
| M608 |
Yes it is; I pref- I prefer Paddy's Milestane. |
| M078 |
M- Milestone is better, yeah. |
| M608 |
Aye. |
| M078 |
Yes.
And, actually, funnily enough, I er pass- passed it er the, the night I had to give the first r- reading of this, erm because it was part of a, er the, my, well it was my entry into a long poem
//competition,// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
and the, the winner was to be announced at the Scottish, er central Scottish Library, what's it called?
The one in Edinburgh. |
| M608 |
The Scottish
//oh eh// |
| M078 |
//The National Library.// |
| M608 |
The National Library of
//Scotland.// |
| M078 |
//Yeah.// |
| M608 |
oh right. |
| M078 |
er, so I was on holiday in Ireland, so I had to, kind of, come back, eh
//eh for// |
| M608 |
//uh-huh// |
| M078 |
for eh for that event, and passed er Paddy's Milestone, so it was very nice. |
| M608 |
That's nice.
//Yeah, yeah.// |
| M078 |
//Yes, it was, it was good.// |
| M608 |
How long have you been working on it? I mean, it's a, it is a long poem. |
| M078 |
er yes, erm, I would say for quite a long while, as part of er coming to terms with different aspects of my ancestry and heritage, which includes a language heritage as well. |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
Or a lost heritage in this case. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, so I would say, probably, probably, erm over about s-s- six to to eight years.
Bits of it were
//were// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
were building in, until there was the occasion of that erm eh competition. |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
erm, and it's made up of [exhale] various kinds of aspects of [exhale] Scots-Irish history, Irish immigrant history in Scotland, and family history.
And language history as well.
er, in the in in the various languages: personal language history erm from my own erm background, and also languages that I'd learned and studied at at school and since.
And, translations that had been
//made of// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
my work and so on, so there was a whole aspect of that.
//erm// |
| M608 |
//Did you e-//
did you always have a l- long poem in mind when you started off?
//Or a se- or a// |
| M078 |
//er no.// |
| M608 |
sequence of poems? |
| M078 |
erm
m- more eh, more, more sequences, and in fact, eh, just in the kind of spurious way that that that er poets do, erm youm- you make things of, you make something of bits of fragments that are lying around.
//I mean// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
essentially, the the the the "Passage North to Armagh", which is the the the third of the the big long passages, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
That was a reworking of something that I wrote, erm wr- wrote quite a long time ago.
erm and I changed the form a bit and I tightened it up and
//er just// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
disciplined it a little bit.
But yes, that's something from about, er, probably about five years ago now. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, and then some of the the the poems, which are, you know, separate at the end, you know it's a kind of epic eh structure,
//erm,// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
which then, as it nears the present, begins to fragment a little bit
//into// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
perceptions, rather like the the sense of culture or Irishness,
begins to alter, once the people come to Scotland.
[click] And then, the ability to, even to to make a large statement or to be part of a culture, actually, breaks down into separate little poems,
but they're to-fro poems, bu- some set in Scotland, in Glasgow, some set in eh Northern Ireland, ne- in Ballycastle mainly,
but also, erm |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
eh, other parts, in fact in Donegal, Glencolmkill is where the last bit of the poem is is is headed,
where of course Columba left from; it's the glen of co- er St Columba,
one of the places where he, eh, you know, he had eh left Ireland on the way to Iona. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
So, erm, you know there's th- the sense of of that voyage er starting out again,
//at the very// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
end, but of course it's also a poem about dying and |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
just the, just, just the sense of of of easing into, er, into another sort of water,
erm, at at the end, er in |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
reasonably, sort of hopeful or or |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
relaxed or exhausted [laugh]
//way! [laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
//[laugh]//
I always tell the story about eh wh-wh- where that poem came from,
and this is er er
//[inaudible]// |
| M608 |
//Which one is this?// |
| M078 |
It's the very final one. |
| M608 |
Okay. |
| M078 |
er, regarding water.
//er// |
| M608 |
//ah// |
| M078 |
It was my money-making poem!
//The one that [inaudible] [laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]//
//The one that won the prize.// |
| M078 |
//[laugh]//
Aye, the one that won two prizes
//[inaudible] I'm// |
| M608 |
//Two prizes!// |
| M078 |
ashamed to say.
It won a prize in, er already in Ireland, |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
as part of the er Davoren Hanna a- award. |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
erm and, eh, so, it it it it made money there.
And then I shoved it in again at the end of of of this, and it- it's a kind of clinching thing. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
But it it arises from a time when, er you know, I was absolutely exhausted by the kind of erm treadmill approach to working which I tend to adopt. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
Probably from my peasant ancestry, just, er you know, just getting harnessed up and |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
eh going on it till I collapsed.
And this was in Easter time when I was very very tired, sitting beside this little loch, Loch Esk,
just outside Donegal town, and eh, I was just so tired that I just wanted to to die really, to read the paper and die.
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
And it, you know, it was not too bad, actually, it was it was a very luxurious er hotel that
//we were in,// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
by the the lochside, so it was a pleasant place to die,
but, erm, nevertheless er just that sense of exhaustion was was very real.
//And// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
So that's where that came from, but it's quite near Glen- Glencolmkill; that's another of the Gaeltacht areas of of of of Donegal. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, and part of the poem at least is about the kind of language I would have spoke had my ancestors not come here. |
| M608 |
Yeah, one of the things I wanted to ask you is, I think one of the earlier titles for the sequence, or o- one of the working titles, was er Poems in-, "Poems for a now-abandoned language".
//Is that right?// |
| M078 |
//Yes, erm//
er yes, these, th-
//[inaudible]// |
| M608 |
//Or poems//
to be translated into an abandoned language. |
| M078 |
Yeah.
Poems written for translation,
erm, into an abandoned
//language.// |
| M608 |
//Abandoned language.// |
| M078 |
I've forgotten the Irish for it, but
//I could// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
find it and let you
//know, it's// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
The poem's, yes,
//[inaudible]// |
| M608 |
//But that//
but that struck me as an interesting and curious title.
//Because it// |
| M078 |
//oh yeah.// |
| M608 |
it |
| M078 |
mmhm |
| M608 |
it it immediately assumes a sense of distance from the language that you're writing in.
That it's not an end-product, that it's a process,
to to be translated. |
| M078 |
Yes, yes, erm, and this was my, one of my earlier attempts, probably about [cough] maybe four years, maybe five years ago,
erm, to come to terms with with with Gaelic writing, or G- or Gaelic writing, because I was really aware that I was kind of attracted to erm Gaelic writing, but I didn't know very much er Gaelic,
erm [inhale]
And I would always gaze at it, and then I would go straight to the translation; the Gaelic's usually on the left-hand page, the translation's on the right,
and I would read the translation and gaze at at the other, and this was a kind of foreign language.
So it, I thought I would try to write poems ou- out of that sort of consciousness,
kind of in translator-ese
//language.// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
erm, what's nice about translations is the kind of er slightly tangential er
view that they have of reality, and the grip on language is often not, you know, quite as firm as as as it should be.
But the consciousness, oh kind of foreignness, tends t-t- to come across, and there's often a kind of ungainliness or or strangeness.
And, so, I thought I would write poems in English,
directly to be translated back.
It was the kind of, a Gaelic |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
version of English, as as it were,
or a Gaelic take on the world.
And it was me as I imagined, poems that I imagined I would write, had I never come here, and having
//grown// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
up as er bilingual.
//[inaudible] Irish Gaelic.// |
| M608 |
//So you're talking about Irish Gaelic?// |
| M078 |
I I I wasn't at the time, but Roddy Gorman took them, and and he's he's not trilingual, or you know, he writes in Scots erm Gaelic sometimes and Irish Gaelic other times.
And he translated them straight away into Irish Gaelic, which really er I found very touching.
[cough] and and and strange and I've made attempts since to, you know, to learn er a little bit more of of Irish Gaelic.
//So,// |
| M608 |
//c- can you tell//
me a little more about that partnership, because did you have actually much input into the Irish version [inaudible]
//the Gaelic versions, no?// |
| M078 |
//No, no.//
No, nothing, cause I I my my own Gaelic is so
//absolutely// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
limited. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
er, he thinks I know more of it than than I do. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
But I don't.
erm
No, I just met him s- eh somewhere and told him what I was doing, and he thought he would quite like
//to// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
transl- to try translating them back, and I was delighted at that.
//And he put// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
work in, and I haven't really done much since.
They they have been published, and people found them attractive.
v-v-
//[inaudible] they've been published// |
| M608 |
//Have they? Yeah.// |
| M078 |
separately.
//[?]A series of them had[/?]// |
| M608 |
//oh I see, [inaudible]// |
| M078 |
been published separately: they weren't written for this.
//They were written// |
| M608 |
//oh I see.// |
| M078 |
as a separate sequence of about, er, there's probably about ten or fifteen poems at
//at that// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
time.
I did one section of about eight, and then, you know, eight or, eight or nine poems.
And, erm, then a a second follow-up ones of about four or five poems. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
which I don't think were quite as good,
erm.
But, they have, most of them have actually been published here and there, separately. |
| M608 |
That, that's interesting, because you do incorporate some of these back into the sequence
//[?]don't you?[/?] Yeah.// |
| M078 |
//Yes, I do, I do.//
Because they were part of that coming-to-terms with the, this erm cultural dimension of of my life, you
//see.// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
erm, I've very very struck by th- the way in which people from m- my background, although mine mine is is is mixed,
Scots and Irish, and that that's a very typical mixture eh within eh Scotland,
the West of Scotland.
m- My erm great-grandfather came over here probably
in about the eighteen-seventies.
[inhale]
Eighteen-seventies, to work in eh industrial Lanarkshire, at ehm in iron-stone foundries work, and
from there to coal-mining and and and different things like that,
erm so these people had been here for over a hundred years.
And longer in some cases.
You could, you could track back some of them, actually, yeah,
//back// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
to the, back to the eighteen-fifties.
ehm a a a a Campbell who who was a Smith.
And, and, he was eh over here working, staying with his daughter I think.
ehm.
And, Catholic Campbell. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
[click] [inhale] And, ehm.
This sense that people could have been in Scotland for a hundred and fifty years. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
And, I still feel, actually, different from a lot of what is the known ideology of Scotland.
I don't
//think// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
like a Scot: I don't, I don't necessarily have the same sort of values.
Part of me does, because my mother came from that, eh, eh, Presbyterian er Protestant work-ethic background,
although she became a, she became a Catholic, so some kind of erm,
I think there was some kind of spiritual dimension to her,
but basically, |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
er, she, she has a, you know, a strong work-ethic, a a a driving force,
erm, and, so I understand that part of Scottish
//identity.// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
But, part of me, erm, and part of me er works towards that identity,
I work tremendously hard at at at things, I think.
erm, but another part of me realises that there's a difference;
a difference in
//the way// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
I speak, a difference in the way I think.
It's partly religious background,
and er
//the cu-// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
the cultural er set of references that you get from that, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
which are, hugely different I think from from
//from// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
from the norm.
ehm, [click] so, part of the, er, part of the
th-th-th- the poem is an attempt to come to terms with these different ways of thinking, this, different aspects of this cultural heritage. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
And, this s-s- sense of searching for what I might otherwise have been.
er, you know, had n- had not my people become Scottish,
eh, wh-wh- was part of this, and so this sense of personal exploration |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
was mirrored by, ah, linguistic exploration;
not
//just// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
of English, Scots and Irish, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
or, English, Scots and and and and and and Gaelic,
//Celtic,// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
but also the other foreign languages which I had eh learned at school. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, large number of of of these, as I could in those days, by by dropping
eh, science and and maths and so on.
[click] ehm
//So// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
[inaudible] |
| M608 |
cause there's there's a, there are embedded into the the sequence |
| M078 |
mmhm |
| M608 |
translations from from other writers as well. |
| M078 |
y- Yes, yes |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
and little references and ways of, ways of using, [?]I mean[/?], foreign, foreign language in in that way. |
| M608 |
Don't you think it's kind of a paradox in a way, that in a very personal exploration of your own identity and your family history, you're actually using effectively a kind of gestalt
series of voices, er that in order to explore language, |
| M078 |
mmhm |
| M608 |
you're u-, well not using, but you're collaborating with a translator, who's then bringing the the language back to the poem?
What, what do see the status of the the English and the Gaelic er versions?
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
//Of//
the poems written for translation |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
into an [inaudible] language?
//[inaudible]// |
| M608 |
//In which way//
[inaudible] primary, or is, or is that a daft question? |
| M078 |
erm
I would say that, at an artistic level
the the English version was primary, in the sense that what I was trying to get was a way of describing, a way of looking at the world. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
But that was partly a manufactured
//way// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
of looking at the world.
The fact that it then became er an Irish, er, poem
[inhale]
er delighted me tremendously,
because that seemed to give a kind of validation,
or an authenticity to this first glancing experimentation as to whether, er you know, I could actually construct that. |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
erm, and I had to trust Roddy that he that that he that he got it right. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
er, what is one of the funny things about it is that I learned why Irish had been abandoned
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
It had, erm, it had, eh, it takes twice as long
to say the same line.
The the length |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
of of each line is about twice as long in the Irish
//as it is [laugh]// |
| M608 |
//I think, I think we all knew that Jim.//
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
//[laugh]//
//Well I I I I well I// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
I didn't eh, no- so so much, until, you know, I saw the two things side by side. |
| M608 |
Right. |
| M078 |
ehm, there's also, you know, there's partly a little
r-r-r-r-r- was it a religious or cultural reference there, because
ehm, Scotland eh within the Dominican Order is called 'Provincia Deserta'.
An abandoned province. |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
There used to be a, there used to be a a Scottish province of of of the Dominicans,
which is actually radically different and in a way more Protestant than the English Dominicans. |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
That's to say that they they went back eh to the original er premises of the order and and and so on.
And they, going for poverty, and eh you know, hard work,
the way that the Dutch Dominicans did as well, where the where the soft English er province allowed themselves to earn extra money and so on, and they they only worked to their own priory.
The Scots were much more radical, erm,
and they, you know, they went back to the the the the origins of the order and so on,
But of, and they were the ones that were first attacked, at Perth, by John Knox's mob.
So
//that// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
suggests that they were some sort of force that he recognised that had to be er, you know, pushed aside.
But anyway, Scotland then became an abandoned province.
[inhale]
Now, an abandoned language |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
erm, suggests to me, erm, a kind of, yeah, something deserted, something something erm, something of a loss. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
er, a cultural loss. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
Perhaps personal.
But also, I think, in a way to to, erm, maybe to to S- to S- to Scotland, and certainly to the individuals concerned,
these first people who were translated in that other sense; carried across
//the// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
water,
ehm, and having to lose contact with family and so on, although there was a fair bit of to and fro, because the ferries were going every day and twice a day,
so there wasn't, it it wasn't impossible, but it was very easy to lose touch with who you were, because you had to merge, and one of the ways that you do that is you you you abandon whole
//aspects// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
of yourself
//which are// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
carried in the language and the way of understanding. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
And I do think, that, or that, erm, the way that you use language, erm, shapes the way that you think about things, and there are aspects of my language, I think, which are still quite Irish in a way.
//I don't know where I// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
got that, but it's the inability to to be simple, or inability to say y- yes or no,
//you know, this// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
notion of the Irish for 'no'; there is no Irish for 'no'.
Er, they don't have a [inaudible]
//say it is// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
not
//or [inaudible]// |
| M608 |
//mmhm yes.// |
| M078 |
so I'm I'm I'm very very tentative with my language and, kind of fluidity, is is is maybe something there, I don't know
whether there is or not. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
I often wonder, eh what what there was about it.
I grew up in Dumfriesshire, er, speaking, er presumably [inaudible] in the playground a rural, rural Scots,
and whenever we came up to visit my grandmother, who was still in this [inhale] eh, same, eh miners', essentially mining community,
and listened to her, a-a- and presumably my father, speaking this Lanarkshire |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, Scots, which I think was kind of Irish-inflected, certainly in in in a way of expressing
//oneself.// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
I was very conscious of of of the difference there,
//very conscious// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
of of the linguistic difference, of, not just of sound but of ways of, erm ways of of of putting words erm in order.
Just one wee bit which I, you know, which I which I I'm I'm I'm aware of it, is where the, it's the it's the grandfather's voice erm |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
er, the one who was killed in er the pit accident in about nineteen thirty-one or thirty-two,
and he talks about his own back; he was he was a big man,
and in this accident, the long back twisted out of line utterly:
"the long back twisted out of line utterly".
Now it's the placing of the "utterly".
[page turning]
erm, I remember my grandmother er eating ice-cream. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
once from the van which came round,
and saying "I shall be fat as a fool directly".
//"I shall be fat as a fool directly".// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
And it's the the use of "shall",
//and that// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
it's "I shall be",
//I// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
er, which I think is old
//[inaudible] Scots.// |
| M608 |
//Is Old Scots, yeah.//
mmhm |
| M078 |
"I shall be", but "fat as a fool", meaning as a a Downs Syndrome
//person,// |
| M608 |
//Okay.// |
| M078 |
I think, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
the village fool: "I shall be fat as a fool directly".
//That word// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
"directly",
//and the// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
placing of it,
//you know,// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
that, er seems to me to be different from anything I've ever heard el- elsewhere. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
I don't think it's quite Scots.
But anyway, I was trying to echo some, erm, some
//of that little// |
| M608 |
//Some// |
| M078 |
er, thing, but
er, I don't want to be sentimental about this, but |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
I just, I've I've heard people say that, for example, Coatbridge speech
//is// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
recognisably different - I don't know if anybody has studied it linguistically - but is recognisably different from Airdrie speech, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
along these kind of religious divi-
//lines.// |
| M608 |
//Be interesting, yeah.// |
| M078 |
erm, the guy who said that was that awful eh [laugh] wild man of Scottish [laugh] Scottish literature, sorry I've forgotten his name.
//eh, [laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
[laugh] erm |
| M608 |
That narrows it down.
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
//Yes, [laugh]//
His name will come back to me.
er, I should have brought along [?]"The Cross o Water"[/?] cause he's in that. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
And it's there that he erm, it's there that he he he talks about that. |
| M608 |
uh-huh |
| M078 |
erm, it's the one who's erm, [taps pencil] er,
Des Dillon.
//Des Dillon is his name.// |
| M608 |
//oh, Des Dillon, oh yes, okay.// |
| M078 |
He was a wild man, and er now living down in Wigtownshire, I suppose,
//getting// |
| M608 |
//uh// |
| M078 |
his dose of Dumfries and Galloway Scots. |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
But anyway, he he talks about that,
//and ways// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
of ways of expressing yourself, which |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
probably come from that sort of cultural background. |
| M608 |
Thinking when I was reading it, and this is partly because of my poverty of references, er, I mean I was very struck by, simply because it's in the four compass points.
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
//Yes, er.// |
| M608 |
erm it reminded me of a lot of things, like the Four Quartets, the Quaker graveyard at Nantucket, and
//in the// |
| M078 |
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
sense of, er there's a kind of pilgrimage there as well
//as// |
| M078 |
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
a a transition. |
| M078 |
Yes. |
| M608 |
er, it's a very very spiritual |
| M078 |
mmhm |
| M608 |
er, sequence in many ways.
There are, [click] direct references obviously to God, and and and and kind of echoes of er Gerard Manley Hopkins and people like that.
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
//oh, is there?// |
| M608 |
Yes, er, yes. |
| M078 |
[laugh] Didn't know that. |
| M608 |
erm, I think so in terms of er some of the rhymes and the rhythms. |
| M078 |
ah |
| M608 |
er, I think, I know, I know that again it's probably knowledge, [inaudible] translating Gerard Manley Hopkins into
//Scots.// |
| M078 |
//Yes, yes.// |
| M608 |
erm, |
| M078 |
Yes. |
| M608 |
And er, [inaudible] |
| M078 |
uh-huh |
| M608 |
but I, these are not things that you were aware of, er,
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
//erm, not in,// |
| M608 |
if you're reacting with
//surprise// |
| M078 |
//uh-huh// |
| M608 |
to them? |
| M078 |
er, not in particular.
erm
But, yes, th- maybe, oh certainly in terms of the structure: I knew that a long poem had to have a structure.
And, I I knew that the best structure was a kind of voyage, or epic voyage.
And this, this was the o- voyage of which I'm one result. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
A voyage which has never been documented because the people were of- often came over here illiterate
into a highly literate, at least ideologically literate Scottish culture.
The school in every parish and so on, as as as the, you know, the mark of of the Reformation.
The idea that you've got to be literate to read the Bible, so you can interpret it according to your own er sense of of your own [?]lights[/?] and that sort of thing.
erm, the Irish didn't come out of that background at all,
erm, so, erm, that voyage was never documented.
When they came here |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
er, they were so busy working that there was no time for the sort of writing that I was, the sort of writing that I er am able to do because of the benefits of education and background, so
in one sense, er very strongly, I was eh speaking for the tribe, er like
//the epic// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
poet, trying to tell a story of this this this tribe of what could come over, often into an inchoate er and painful
//experience// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
of, er, deracination, and eh, foreignness of culture,
erm, bigotry, poverty, being pushed around.
On the other hand, it was better to do that with with with with food in your stomach, |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
than to be pushed around e- elsewhere, in in Ireland.
//You know what I mean, so// |
| M608 |
//Okay, yeah.// |
| M078 |
I'm not saying that they got nothing from here; they got everything from here.
Their life, and so on, er a a means of earning it,
erm, but their voyage was never told.
//And so I had this// |
| M608 |
//Yeah.// |
| M078 |
tremendous sense of actually trying honestly to tell not just a family story, but eh a a story that had never really been
//documented.// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
Not in this way.
//It's beginning// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
to be documented historically, obviously. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
But, just in some sense that encapsulates, through the rhythms and sounds, something of the authenticity of that experience.
And loss of language was was part of it, but gaining language was part of it as well,
//or gaining// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
aspects of Scots, gaining aspects of culture. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
Gaining a sense of being able to to be, to be more mobile really;
//within that// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
upwardly mobile and
//sideways// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
mobile.
So, ehm, I'd also as you probably know, ehm
eh, for my own, eh, doctoral studies, had looked at the structure of the English modernist long poem. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
Particularly, Basil Bunting's
//er// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
poetry,
So, I I knew, a fair bit about what the poem should, kind of, look like. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
And, so the structures were there which I then filled in, |
| M608 |
Yeah. |
| M078 |
with various bits of of of in-filling. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, and, eh, some newly-written and newly-invented, and others coming out of that erm experience of erm personal and also artistic growth,
erm, which I had been engaged in for, you know, probably the last erm, th- the last ten years or so,
er, last decade of of of my life.
erm, so, erm.
Yes, there's no, it- it's not surprising then that it's that it's that it's got those resonances,
erm, interesting that
//Basil Bunting// |
| M608 |
//Yeah.// |
| M078 |
was a Quaker as well. |
| M608 |
Yeah.
I was interested in the Gerard Manley Hopkins, because there's obviously an- another kind of line of, a kind of blood-line there, in so far as H- Hopkins was a Jesuit in Glasgow, Edwin Morgan
//has written// |
| M078 |
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
a sonnet about
//er,// |
| M078 |
//Yes. Yes.// |
| M608 |
Manley Hopkins in Glasgow. |
| M078 |
mmhm |
| M608 |
And, one of the things that you sometimes get in Manley Hopkins is an assertion of spirituality against
a background of, er, kind of terrible circumstances, and things like the wreck of the Deutschland,
//for example.// |
| M078 |
//Yes, yes.//
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
//And I wondered if that was//
[inaudible]
//there is a very// |
| M078 |
//uh-huh// |
| M608 |
strong assertion of spirituality amidst the
//the// |
| M078 |
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
the hardships that are, that is going on here. |
| M078 |
Yes, yes, that's that that's that's true,
erm, and Hopkins of course couldn't h- handle the Irish at at all.
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
erm, that, well certainly in Liverpool.
//erm// |
| M608 |
//Yeah.// |
| M078 |
The Glasgow ones were better; I think he got on better with the Donegal people, because they seemed to have a, s- a wee bit more respect for him. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
er, yes, there is a spiritual language; I was trying to count up the languages, and, you know, there seem to be nine or, nine, or ten or so,
But, but then er you could add th- this one.
//er// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
th- the language that angels speak, th-
//which is the// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
language that ash trees speak in a breeze,
so what is angelic language like, and also what is e-language like, there's reference at the end to swallows typing, swallows in the sky typing emails to heaven.
//er// |
| M608 |
//[inaudible] bit of//
text at the beginning as well.
[laugh] would |
| M078 |
Well, yes, yes, uh-huh, in order to to get that sense of of of
//narrowness, yes, that's right, uh-huh,// |
| M608 |
//[inaudible] go on stretching, and then stretching,// |
| M078 |
yes, stretching it,
//eh,// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
stretching it out. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm, yes, all sorts of tricks there.
erm, yes, the Hopkins thing is is interesting; I'm, er I suppose, well p- people are in Scotland now still, interested in in Cel- what's called Celtic spirituality,
erm, because, the religions, the religions, the official religions on offer, er both er Protestant and Catholic, erm, are open to severe criticism,
erm, you know, in, you know by anybody looking at them,
er, from from from the outside,
in terms of their ability to to erm to be meaningful,
r- religions to people,
er, and the sense of of of young people, you know, still having some sense of, you know, spiritual dimension to life.
The the Irish in in Scotland eh were often quite radical about the Church that was on offer.
Actually, erm, okay. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
erm, there was this sense of Irish piety.
The importance of the spiritual life of the the world of nature, very very ancient in Celtic, of of holy places that you're
//that// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
that you go to.
er, the rosary is mentioned.
erm, these senses, this sense of of of prayer as aligning you with eh both heaven and earth,
the the holiness within the landscape.
er wh- which is there in holy places, the idea of going on pilgrimage, the the
//great, the// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
the very interesting I think, passage north to Armagh. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
erm which goes through County Down, through Downpatrick, and St
//Patrick there and// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
so on.
erm, these things erm these things eh, do speak a sort of spiritual language. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
I hadn't thought of er Gerry Manley Hopkins within that because
er
partly I think because he was a c- comrade, and it always seems to me that the Jesuit spirituality was kind of the wrong one for for him;
he should have be-
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
he should have entered another order, but he he he constantly chose the the the hard route.
//Hardest// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
route that he can possibly have taken.
erm, er, but may- maybe maybe it is there, er maybe the resonances are there. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
em, eh, |
| M608 |
I can tell you what lines.
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
//Yeah, that that [inaudible]// |
| M608 |
It's on page twelve [inaudible]: "What drives us? Work does not seep or sleep but gouges out a course like water, and soon is endless, as the air we gulp, midnight or noon". |
| M078 |
oh yes, I see what
//you mean.// |
| M608 |
//[inaudible]//
//It's a bit// |
| M078 |
//uh-huh// |
| M608 |
like, it's got the rhythms of the world discharged from the grandeur of the god; it's got those kind of |
| M078 |
Yes. |
| M608 |
assonances.
//erm, and// |
| M078 |
//Yes, yes.// |
| M608 |
also the, the kind of the, erm, [click], the [?]delighten[/?] sound,
I think
//is// |
| M078 |
//mmhm// |
| M608 |
is is
//the// |
| M078 |
//Yes.// |
| M608 |
erm |
| M078 |
Yes. |
| M608 |
But also that kind of questioning about er the meaning of experience, I think you'll find in in Hopkins, you know, looking for, looking actively for for Go- evidence of God in in the natural world and in and in various kind of natural processes. |
| M078 |
Yes. |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
Yes, yes,
//that c- that that could well be right.// |
| M608 |
//mm mm mm// |
| M078 |
Part of the the consciousness erm which is speaking eh in that first section, "Passage East",
is this erm, this this priest, er James Quigley, |
| M608 |
mm |
| M078 |
erm, who may be a- an an ancestral presence on my wife's side,
er, and who was the last er Catholic priest to be to be er hanged in England,
hanged in in in in Kent.
//bec-// |
| M608 |
//So far.// |
| M078 |
Yeah [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
[laugh]
//Yes, and then bring back the death penalty just especially.// |
| M608 |
//[laugh]// |
| M078 |
erm, so, h- he was an interesting man, part of the United Irishmen movement.
//And// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
you know that it it starts erm oh with the escape and disappearance into Scotland of some of the survivors of the United Irishmen rebellion of of of 1798.
ehm
[click] eh, James Hi- Quigley was was making his way to Paris, |
| M608 |
hmm |
| M078 |
erm, in order to try to enlist the help of of French revolutionaries.
[inhale]
//er he was// |
| M608 |
//[inaudible]// |
| M078 |
caught with another, an e- quite well-connected aristocrat.
erm, but James er Quigley, er took the rap,
for it;
//the other// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
guy got away with it.
And I think er documents were planted on him.
There's no doubt that he was going to Paris to get Fr- French revolutionary help,
for the United Irishmen's rebellion.
But, erm, the United Irishmen became the United Scotsmen;
they g- they g- they got involved in early radical movements in
//Scotland to try// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
to g- eh get the votes and trade unions and a- all of that kind of businesss, so
erm, the idea of of a [inaudible] priestly presence is a radical priest,
//More// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
radical than Hopkins was; he was very
//middle-class// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
ehm person.
And, that priest, erm because of his eh h- his links there, was actually speaking out for, em, much more of a a a dialogue and understanding between eh religions
//than// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
against sectarianism.
//erm// |
| M608 |
//Yeah.// |
| M078 |
You know, the the brotherhood of affection.
//A union// |
| M608 |
//Yes.// |
| M078 |
of sentiment; these are the great
//these are// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
the great, er, ehm, radical ehm, expressions of
//brotherhood and so on.// |
| M608 |
//mm yeah.// |
| M078 |
erm, the United Irishmen was the only time, when for er a fortnight [laugh] Catholics and Protestants [laugh] were fighting on the same side in Northern Ireland,
//before the// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
the British government played the orange card,
and used the the Orange Movement to break it break it up.
//And// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
and and it it it fragmented.
James Quigley, a remarkable man; very, very good writer,
//and// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
very learned and so on.
Very badly treated by his own family; badly treated by the the Orangemen in in Armagh.
But then anyway, that- that's by the by, th- there is that sense that if there's a spiritual guy looking at it he's also a political guy. |
| M608 |
mmhm |
| M078 |
And he's the one, I think, that's that's looking out and and and watching, thinking about the angels and and so on,
as he moves, but he's also speaking about, er, he's also speaking about people under-, er you know, [cough] you kn- j- just for understanding.
And, n- not for that, er you know, just erm [click] confrontation; how ignorant then, or how wicked, must that man be who attempts through interested motives to make his enemies for religion's sake?
That
//Those are his// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
words,
//they're they// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
they're they are not my words.
Just as you have the the Scottish erm eh politician; again I've forgotten his name - I would need to check it up.
[inaudible] saying we still have swarms from Ireland, but I've sent back as many indeed more persons
//than in// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
strict law we are authorised to do.
But we must not stop at at rifles.
This was the the the the the Lord who was the the equivalent of the Scottish Secretary at the time,
//writing// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
to London.
er, running his groups of spies,
not able to track down who were these rebels coming in. |
| M608 |
Right. |
| M078 |
Maybe cause they
//didn't carry passports,// |
| M608 |
//mmhm mmhm// |
| M078 |
They might be looking for work and so on.
So you're getting all sorts of people coming across,
and this was of course seventeen-ninety-eight.
//This is// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
people think that people are just coming because of the famine,
//and they were just// |
| M608 |
//Yeah.// |
| M078 |
coming, er, hungry.
They were coming for for other reasons,
and, you know, helping to change the face of Scotland,
//you know, er,// |
| M608 |
//mm// |
| M078 |
mm inter- industrially, technologically.
But also, I I would hope, in offering something eh, which w- was part of Scottish rad- radicalism.
er, and and wasn't something piously, piously eh different,
or actually suspect.
eh, to, for those reasons, those misunderstood reasons,
//to// |
| M608 |
//mmhm// |
| M078 |
erm, the Scottish religious culture of of the time. |
| M608 |
[click]
We're going to have to call a halt there; that was really interesting, so
//[?]it was[/?]// |
| M078 |
//[laugh]//
[laugh] |
| M608 |
Think we'll just |
| M078 |
Okay. |
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