SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 1673 Title : Interview with Mary A Ronnie, Part 1, for Scottish Readers Remember Project Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE SCOTS Project Audio transcription F1189: It's the tenth of February, two thousand and nine, and I'm in Dunedin in Otago in New Zealand, a long way from home, and at the home of Mary Ronnie, erm in Musselburgh. //That's Otago, Musselburgh. [laugh]// F1190: //That's right. [laugh]// F1189: Erm, and it's a pleasure to be here, Mary, can I thank you very much first of all for agreeing to speak with me today. F1190: Oh I'm I've enjoyed every minute so far //so, I hope we carry on enjoying it. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// I know, it's marvellous, and I'm here in this house, which is al- almost a hundred and fifty years old, //is that correct?// F1190: //That's right.// One of //the early ones that was built// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I don't think that, that it was a Scot that built it, //but he was a brewer and apparently// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he brewed //beer in the basement at one stage. [laugh]// F1189: //Oh he could have been a Scot then. [laugh]// Right, can I ask you first of all a very easy question erm which is er to tell me when you were born? F1190: I was born on the twelfth of June in nineteen twenty-six, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: in Glasgow, in Dennistoun, number [CENSORED: address] Aberdour Street. F1189: Oh now Dennistoun I know, //erm// F1190: //Uh-huh.// F1189: and I think I know Aberdour //Street as well.// F1190: //It's fairly nearly// //opposite the gateway into Alexandra Park.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Yes, and I know that one //too, I had a// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: friend who lived there. So, nineteen twenty-six, erm right, well that's the interwar period then //an-an- and quite a difficult// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: time in Scotland. F1190: Well, I think it became very //difficult// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and it was probably part of the reason we came here. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But my father was working in Blochairn Steelworks. //He was the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: electrical f-f-foreman, electrical engineer and of course that's gone. F1189: Mmhm, mmhm, //mmhm.// F1190: //Went back and,// all the steelworks practically //had disappeared, it's another world now.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Aw all that manufacturing, yes, //uh-huh, has gone from Glasgow, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, just not there, yes.// F1189: So, wh- what was your house like in Dennistoun? //Dennistoun's a lot of tenements, mmhm mmhm.// F1190: //It was a ground floor flat in a, in a// in a tenement, and it was, it was a room, kitchen, spare room, bathroom, all //self-contained,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: um, but not large. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I think my father really wanted to have a change of occupation, he had a sort of genius with motorcars. What he really wanted to do was go off and set up business, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: f-fixing up motorcars because that's what he really enjoyed. Of course it was very early days of motorcars. But of course he died after my parents had only been married about eight years, so he never realised this, he was still working at Blochairn //when he died.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //And he was only// forty-four, it was just, you know, so sad //for my mother too, yes.// F1189: //Aye that's sad, uh-huh, uh-huh.// Er, and you have brothers and //sisters, then?// F1190: //I had one brother,// //yes,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and she was left - I was six, Jim was seven, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and she was left really to bring us up and find a way to earn a living and F1189: Mmhm. F1190: cause, there weren't, pensions didn't exist. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So it was g-, it was a very hard time for her. And her family had been coming out to New Zealand since the eighteen sixties, and her sisters were here, and after about three or four years she decided she'd come too, and //that's why we came to New Zealand.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So that was nineteen thirty-seven. F1189: I see. So, nineteen thirty-seven, that would make you thirteen? //[?]Twelve[/?]?// F1190: //I was eleven.// F1189: Eleven. //Mmhm.// F1190: //I was eleven.// And F1189: Mmhm. F1190: when we got here I just - I didn't want to //go to school// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: at all, because I'd been to //five primary schools// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: in Scotland. Because my father had died, my mother was looking around to see places to live. So when we arrived here I just didn't want to go back to school, //so she// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: let me not go to school for nearly five months, as long as I read. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And we were living round the corner from the children's library in the city, in //Dunedin.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I just spent a blissful five //months reading books.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Then she said, 'The day after your birthday you're going to school'. So I went. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Now, you went to five different //schools, did you say, in Scotland?// F1190: //That's right, yes.// F1189: How did that come about? F1190: Well, there was //the first one// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: where, you know, when my father //was alive,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: then we moved soon after that, and I went to a sch-, um, Napiershall Street School. Then we moved to Edinburgh and I was there for about six //months, and I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: hated it, hated it. Then we came back to to Glasgow and I went to Dowanhill School, and then I went briefly to a little school out here, outside of Dunedin //where my aunt lived.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So that'd been five of them and that was all too much for me. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I didn't want to get to know //anybody// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: new. So, there were books round //the corner.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And school was just a waste of time, it spoiled my reading. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// That is, that must have been difficult actually, you-your-your moving around //like that, was your// F1190: //Aw it was.// F1189: father moving, erm, because of work? //Mmhm.// F1190: //Well he didn't move at all,// it was my mother who got //restless.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, you know, sh-she just couldn't decide what to do //I think.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then in the end of course we came out here. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I had about a year at primary school, and then I went to Otago Girls' High //School,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which I loved. //I mean, oh once I got to school I was perfectly happy,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but, erm, er, once I went to high school, once again I was by myself, because nobody from my class at Arthur Street School //went into the form that I was in,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: so I had to start all over again. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But I did make a lot of friends there //and it was a great school, I really enjoyed it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// And all those different homes that you lived in, //in in Glasgow, 'cause,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: I think you must have lived in the West End //at one point too, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes we did, we lived in two or three// places in the West End. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Cecil Street, which is quite close to the university. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Erm Napiershall Street, which is right opposite the Anglican Cathedral. //And the house was up th-,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: that was a lovely house, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: it really was, but that's gone, //it's been demolished// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and there's a modern brick place //there.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And then we lived in oh what was the name, it was off Atholl Gardens? And that was very nice, now, w-, that was when I went to Dowanhill //School, and we walked, you had to walk down there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: And my brother by that time was going to high school //so he went to Hyndland.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Well I know all these landmarks very well //indeed, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Do you? [giggle] Yes, yes,// //yes.// F1189: //Now how,// in your houses - these are all quite nice areas //in Glasgow,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: erm, uh, traditional //tenement housing,// F1190: //Right,// //yes.// F1189: //Erm,// F1190: Well the one in, ah, in Napiershall Street was probably the nicest //because we had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a totally separate entry, //it wasn't,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there were, there was a staircase, apart from ours, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and our house occupied quite th- - 'cause my mother ran a boarding house, that's why we //got this bigger house - and it had a big basement.// F1189: //Ah, right, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: And then the one we were in in Bowmont Terrace, //that's the last one, um,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: she worked there actually as //caretaker,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and that was in flats and service, //service rooms, and had kitchens on every floor level.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: That was a very //nice house too.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I went to look at it the last time I was in Glasgow which was not in this last year but the one before, and I ended up in a bed and breakfast just round the corner, //by pure chance.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I walked round the corner, and that particular house was busy being fitted out, it looked as though it had f-, rather fallen //into hard times.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But they were, it's still a lovely //area.// F1189: //Yeah,// //yes it is, it is,// F1190: //Yeah.// //But the university's crept up there,// F1189: //I know it well, mmhm.// //Yes.// F1190: //because I noticed// there were university department //places at the top of Bowmont Terrace, which had all been residential when we were children.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, yes, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But it's quite interesting to see the //changes.// F1189: //Mm.// Now in all those houses, can you remember books? Can you remember //books in your home?// F1190: //Well there were always some books// in the house //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: when we were little, the biggest pleasure you ever got was when somebody sent you a book for //Christmas.// F1189: //Mmhm?// F1190: And they were, th- the books I remember best that we read over and over and over again were Robert Louis Stevenson's 'Child's Garden of Verses' and I still have the copy, which is absolutely falling //apart, not// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because we ill-used it, but simply because we read it every //day.// F1189: //Mmhm?// F1190: And we had 'Hamewith', you know, Charles Murray's 'Hamewith'. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Em, but, things like 'Treasure Island', and so on. We didn't have any money after a while to buy books, so we I joined the Public Library. //And it was Partick// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: branch that I joined. //And// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: from there on I just read everything in //sight.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And the funny part was when we arrived in New Zealand, the Public Library Children's Department could've been the Partick Public Library. F1189: [laugh] F1190: It had Chivers-bound books, //do you know, the leather binding books?// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: That changed all very quickly when Dorothy White took over here but, er, th-that was the totally familiar thing in Dunedin. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The rest of it all looks rather odd //and just// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: temporary and, you know, the houses made of wood. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But there was the library, and I walked into that library - and I can still even remember the person that joined me up. //It was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all so familiar, //absolutely familiar.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And she worked with me in that library for years afterwards, she became the Specialist New Zealand Librarian //in the end, she was a marvellous librarian.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I can still remember her face as I walked in to the - F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: well, I was only, what, I'd be ten and a half, eleven, //I suppose.// F1189: //Mmhm.// And that was a welcoming face, //I take it? Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, completely, [?]and that was as[/?],// //it's just as at home, here were all these familiar books all round, looking just like Partick Public Library.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Did you feel at home then, wh-when you F1190: I did, //[?]in the li-[/?] -// F1189: //saw the library?// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //in the library I felt completely at home, yes.// That was simply //not a problem at all,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was always - it was great. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And we used the rest of the library, //my mother would borrow books from the main// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: part of the library, and that was still very much the traditional shape of a reference room //upstairs, with// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: with all the books you //could consult,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and a very busy and rather dilapidated lending downstairs. And that's what Archie Dunningham, who was the second librarian, changed, and he scrapped the reference room and turned them into subject //rooms,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: so that you began to be able to borrow the stuff that had been //isolated// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: up in the, //reference department.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And in times of money shortage of course it made much more //sense, because// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: y-you didn't have to buy a second copy //for the lending when one might do.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: When I eventually, that is, when I started work there I, sort of, got to know all these things. F1189: Mmhm. Now, you've mentioned, er, Robert Louis Stevenson's //'Child's Garden of Verses', which is,// F1190: //Yes, 'Garden of Verses', uh-huh.// F1189: quite an iconic, ehm, //children's text, uh-huh.// F1190: //Oh it is, yes,// //yes.// F1189: //do you// recall any other ones? Did you own that book //by the way? mmhm// F1190: //We owned it, yes,// and we owned the 'Hamewith'. //And my// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: mother had, eh - when I think back on it, a lot of what she had were poetry books. F1189: Mm. F1190: It's interesting to look back on it. I don't remember the other children's books, [throat], but I mu- well, I must have been reading //children's books, there's a,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm// F1190: a story which was repeated again and again when I small. My father mus- - I was only six when Dad //died,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I had a book in my //hand,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I walked up to him and I said `Dad, what does `deter mind cheracter' mean?' F1189: [laugh] F1190: And he looked at this and of course it had been - there was //a picture, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: this child //apparently it was a `deter mind cheracter'.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And he just laughed and laughed and said 'It's what you've got - it's a determined character!' //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So this became a sort of saying, you know, //[inaudible],// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: `There's Mary being a dete-deter mind cheracter.' //So I must have been// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: reading as s- - you know, children's //books// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: at that stage, and I didn't belong to a library //then.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Hm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It was quite a bit to be - two, two years later before I joined the library.// So I don't remember what those books //were.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Were you read to, as a //child? Mm.// F1190: //Aw, yes, [?]well you see[/?],// a-another occasion, when my father was, had a visitor, F1189: Mm. F1190: and I trotted along to him, and I would be five or six I suppose, and I said, `Would you read this to me Daddy?' And he said, `But you can read yourself.' And I can remember looking at him and saying, `If I'd known you'd say that I wouldn't have learned.' F1189: [laugh] F1190: So that was another thing that was kept up for //years so// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: they must have read to us //because I was asking him to read.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But it's all snippets //of memory, isn't it?// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// W-were both your parents readers then? //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, they were both readers// and lots of magazines and things came //into the house,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er, [?]you know[/?], Scots Magazine came in and of course the daily papers were there. That's when I first remembering being conscious that I could read, because I could read the //headlines.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So that-that was the beginning. And I always //realised that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: bigger print was easier F1189: Mmhm. F1190: than smaller print. //It took me// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: quite a while to get into the smaller bits. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: So there was always stuff in the //house to read,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: ever since I could //remember.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Not great bookcases of books like I've accumulated now, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: but there was stuff you //it was just assumed that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that you would read. F1189: Mmhm, yes, where were books kept? Can you recall in in //in your various flats? Hm.// F1190: //I don't remember, do you know, I don't remember.// No memory //of what they were - er// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: how they were kept at all, //that's blank. Don't remember it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But they were, they must've been around, //[throat]// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I can remember getting books as present-, [swallow] and being made to sit down and write thank-you letters, //for these.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh,// uh-huh, uh-huh. F1190: But, what they were, or F1189: Mmhm. //[?]No[/?]...// F1190: //anything about them// I don't know. F1189: Would they come from //aunties,// F1190: //[throat]// //Oh// F1189: //fond aunties// //or? [laugh]// F1190: //yes, and friends of my mother's.// //My mother had a whole// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: lot of women //friends,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and they were the ones that //I think must've sent us the books.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// Did you get actual books or did you get book tokens? F1190: We got books. F1189: Mmhm. //So they were chosen for you// F1190: //[?]That w-[/?],// //aye, they were// F1189: //then?// //Mmhm, mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //chosen for you, I don't remember book tokens when we were children.// I think the first book tokens I got were when I was //grown up, and my friends were giving me them.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But, they were books, //and of course that was the real// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: excitement, undoing the parcel. F1189: Mmhm, uh-huh. F1190: But it was great, //yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// Were you ever disappointed, can you remember, //[?]or was there[/?] - no?// F1190: //I don't remember being disappointed.// //I don't remember that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: at all, just everything was grist to //the mill.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. Now, erm, some of the books that people did keep in their houses that might spark your memory off were things like, er, encyclopedias, //or dictionaries?// F1190: //Yeah we'd// always dictionaries, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: because my mother was a crossword //addict.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I suspect it was always Chambers' Dictionary because I'm still addicted, //I've got about three editions of Chambers over there,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, because there was always //a dictionary// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because there were always crosswords //being done.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: You-, you're triggering my memory now, 'cause I'd, you know //I'd forgotten that.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And we must've had, we must have had encyclopedias. What I do remember vaguely was that my father was very keen on music and we had a gramophone F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and he was a great collector of gramophone records. Probably in that early period I was almost as conscious of putting records //on the gramophone, as reading.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: It was a-a mixture of the two things. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It's interesting t-, I'd forgotten about that. F1189: And what kind of music would that be? F1190: Well he-he was an opera buff. //[throat], [swallow]// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: He was also crazy about radio, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and he would build radios, and he had a little crystal set and I can remember once him giving me //earphones,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and telling me to scratch the crystal. And I heard an operatic singer //from Berlin.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I'll never forget //it. It was absolutely wonderful.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1190: But of course he also had Harry Lauder and Will Fyffe //and all those people,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: and Scottish songs. //Um// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Aw, that great Irish singer, Tera, I can't remember his name? This is age, does this to you. But he was, he was very keen on him, and my husband later was also keen on him. F1189: I know who you mean and I can't remember //the name either, [laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //Well it'llit'll come back if we don't think about it.// But, eh, that was another, //another one, s-// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: em, I can remember us, you know, when we knew he was about to come home, //we'd put a record on to welcome him.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Aw, that's nice, //aw,// F1190: //Yeah.// F1189: what good children laugh. F1190: We were very, //I was very attached to my father, em,// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: he was a great //expeditioner.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Well, on Saturday afternoons and Sundays //we always went somewhere.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: You know, we'd perhaps only be down the Clyde, [?]but[/?] - 'cause I was crazy about the shipyards, //I was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, get me a gantry crane //and I'm happy.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I don't know why it's so, but he know that, if he just took me //in sight of the shipyards, I was perfectly happy.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, [laugh].// F1190: But we were always going off //somewhere like that.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And h-he was, he was a quite, sort of pernickity //person too, you,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there was certain standards he he couldn't, he just could not bear anybody to swear. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: He hated to hear his men talking about their h-, their wives as `the wife' - F1189: Mmhm. F1190: "it's `my wife', //it's not `the wife', that sounds like a possession" -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which is really quite extraordinary for somebody in the //nineteen thirties, you know, that was,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was a very, he was very egalitarian, a, //not at all -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he did the dishes if he felt //like doing the dishes with us, a lot of Scotsmen didn't.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// No, indeed they didn't. //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //In fact they probably expected you to clean their shoes too.// He, he wasn't like that. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So - here, when I think back he was quite an unusual person, but he was a lovely father, and I missed him of course desperately //when he died.// F1189: //It must have been awfully hard,// //at that age.// F1190: //It was,// //it was very hard.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: You know, suddenly there was this //huge gap, it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: terrible. I think my brother and I got very close //together after that.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //Because we b-,// we did, er, uh, lots and lots //of things together,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: pr-, virtually probably until he went to //high school, and we were in different schools.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And of course that continued forever, we were never in the same school And of course that continued forever, we were never in the same school //again,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because we went to different ones here //too.// F1189: //Mmhm.// You may have been too young really to remember this, although they may have been around after your, your father died F1190: Hm. F1189: but you say he was very egalitarian, do you, do you know what his politics were, //if there were any books on politics?// F1190: //Oh, I think he was Tory.// I think both my mother and //father were Tory.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I might be wrong but //I think they were.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: My mother had grown up in a Tory household //[?]and[/?]// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my grandfather was a //Tory// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: county councillor in //Ayrshire and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I I don't remember ever there being //any political,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there were lots of political discussions round //the house, but I'm pretty sure that they would be Tory voters.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //[laugh]// F1190: //I might be wrong. [laugh]// F1189: Ah, no, [?]well[/?], would it have been the Glasgow Herald crossword, then? F1190: Oh, yeah, it would be the Glasgow //Herald, yes, oh, not a doubt about it, yes,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, [laugh].// F1190: it was definitely the Glasgow //Herald, [laugh].// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// Do you remember any other newspapers then, that-that came into the house? //Sunday papers, or?// F1190: //I don't remember, th-// //yeah, oh, I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: remember that, er, motor car magazines came in //a lot, because Dad was very keen on them and we'd the// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: Scots magazine, and I'm sure my mother read the People's //Friend,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just to s- - you see it around news pla-, agents //here.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Oh, I can still remember going into a remote place in Australia, like Darwin, or Broome, //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there on the thing was the People's //Friend - I just couldn't believe it.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: But I'm sure they came into //the house regularly,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, I don't remember otherwise. Um, when we came to New Zealand, my mother got the Scotsman //for a long time,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I think it may have come into the house intermittently too. But [?]it's[/?], apa-apar - but the Glasgow Herald //was the paper, it was definitely the paper.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// You say your mother got the Scotsman here - was it sent or could you buy it //here?// F1190: //You could buy it// in the shops here. //There was a little newsagents,// F1189: //Really? Uh-huh.// F1190: in the c-corner of the city, run by a man called Mr Mann. And Mr Mann was a Scot, and he had all the - they were several weeks //out of date of course,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but he got them all. //Um// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I don't think we got them by air at the library for a long time because it was so //expensive,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and of course when we first came out air travel was almost //unknown, you know, you came out// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: by ship and that was it. But the Scotsman was certainly in the library //and I think when we were// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: quite poor when we first came here, she she read them in the //library, probably// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: and then when we got a bit more money //and things got a bit more prosperous,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: she used to get them //regularly.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And she w-, she was always interested in in the news from //Scotland,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: rather than reading books about //Scotland,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because she wanted to hear what was going on //of course back home.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// Yes, well, by that time things were happening in-in-in Europe, //[?]in nineteen thirty-seven[/?], mmhm.// F1190: //Well, nineteen thirty-seven we came here and,// you know, she, //she was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: r-r-really upset by the whole, nineteen thirty-eight, and and the Chamberlain //[inaudible].// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Then the war //coming, she just// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: felt that twice in a lifetime //was too often,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think, er, she found it very upsetting. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I think we all did, because my father had been in the First World War, and you know, he taught, when we went walks, we trotted along, //singing marshal songs to keep us going so that our legs didn't stop.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I can remember the day I heard that war was declared, I was thirteen, must've been at the end of my first year at high school. And I can remember the sick feeling, as I saw the billboard //out on the street,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: saying `War declared', and of course New Zealand declared war instantly. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. F1190: And I thought, "It's not going to be the same //again for years."// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And when we got home I said to Mum, "It's started", and she said, "It'll be years //before it's sorted."// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// //mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: //And she was right, of course,// didn't fix for ages. And we were very - she felt very //isolated.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //But of course safer.// F1189: Wh-what influenced your mother's, um decision to //to come here then?// F1190: //Well it was the f-, the fact// that her sisters were here. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //She had almost no relatives left in Scotland.// There was one //cousin,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and his son is still alive //in Scotland,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he's eighty-eight, and very frail, //but I did go to see// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: them when I was in Edinburgh. But all the rest of the family had been here, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: f-, well, some of them had been here for several generations. And she had got to know some of the sons of the first F1189: Mmhm. F1190: immigrants, which were in the eighteen-sixties, because they came back to Britain, with the New Zealand //forces in the First World War.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And there must have been a New Zealand base hospital camp, //somewhere// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: close to Liverpool where my mother was working. So I think she had a very nice //time indeed, in her war, with all these New Zealand cousins - they all took her out and she had a great time.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, ah, [laugh], mmhm.// F1190: And she got to know some of them very well, //so they must've// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: come more than once. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: She must have seen them - and of course they went up to Glasgow, to my aunt //there,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the aunt who didn't //emigrate.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And one of her daughters //married a New Zealand serviceman.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Now, Jenny had been a very close friend of my mother's - you know how cousins who are youngest in the //families, they swapped over in the holidays,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and th-they were in, they were, it was this business of being lonely //in Scotland, with everybody// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: gone, that she decided in nineteen thirty-seven to come out //here and of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: course the worst of the Depression was over here. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It had been very bad here - very bad indeed - and th-, at that stage the aunts said `Don't //come.'// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: But then she did, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and of course, within a couple of years the war had //started and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er, she couldn't have changed her mind //about going back anyway, because// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: by the time the war was over, we were well settled in jobs //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// Do you think she may have changed her mind, or did she //settle there?// F1190: //I don't// know, um, probably not, //really.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Certainly, w-w-we went back to Scotland, in nineteen //sixty,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: when I worked at Glasgow Public Libraries. And she was the one that wanted to come back, //I was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: totally content in Glasgow Public Libraries, I was having a great time, I enjoyed the jobs, and but I finally, supposed to work for three //months, and at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the end of seven and a half months I said to the boss, `I've got to go, //if I don't// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: go, I won't ever go', s- But, //Jim was out here, you see, and a Scots mother doesn't want to be separated from her son.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mm.// Aw, //uh-huh.// F1190: //So we came back// and she was happy here //then, yes.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But I think it took quite a long //time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// So how did you take the news that you were going to be coming to New Zealand then? F1190: Aw, I think we were excited, because New Zealand had been part of our background //for years.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [clear throat], My mother didn't ever lose //touch with her// F1189: //Mmhm// F1190: sisters and her aunts who were out //here.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So we'd heard about this country, //and// F1189: //Mm// F1190: it was just, almost an extension of Scotland //in a funny sort of way.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, [inhale]// I assume your mother got letters //um, from h- - did she read them// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: to you? F1190: Well she certainly did some of them, //mm, erm,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we certainly knew what was happening, //because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I can remember her reading a letter which, her aunt, //who// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: came out with one of my aunts, and they were living in Lower Hutt at the //time of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the Napier Earthquake. And Aunt Agnes had written to my mother saying that suddenly she felt very shaky //and she realised// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the whole house was shaking, //and she thought,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "Well, it's only an earthquake, and it's not flu." //My mother found this terribly funny, that anybody would prefer to have an earthquake to flu. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh], [laugh]// F1190: So the-, we - she must've, she must've //r-r-read out these// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: letters, `cause we did seem to know what was going on //out here.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So eventually we came to Dunedin //and I had// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: three cousins here, who were a bit older. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But, you s-, th-> - it was very upsetting for my mother, because that aunt who was here //had brought// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: her up, because her mother died when she was only a year old. Now that aunt died within two years of us //coming// F1189: //Ah,// //mmhm, another loss,// F1190: //and that was a huge block,// //yes.// F1189: //mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then the one in Wellington, who wasn't quite as close, but //was down here// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: for every holiday, she died within a couple of years after //that, so that// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: suddenly here were her sisters. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But by that time it was the middle of the war. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I think if it hadn't been she might well have retreated, //at that point.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But there was no, there was just no way //you could go - and I was in the middle of high school,// F1189: //No going back, no, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: so was Jim, //so, there was no going back about that either.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// So how did you get here? F1190: We came out erm on one of the New Zealand Shipping //Company ships, the Rangitata.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: We had h-huge fun as children coming out, because there was hardly anybody on //board, there were about forty passengers// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: on this huge ship, because it was just before the Coronation, and everybody in New Zealand was going the other //way,// F1189: //Ah,// //[laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //so that nobody was coming out our way.// And the ship was full of bo-boxes of balloons, that were //going to decorate// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the Rangitata when it got back to //Britain for the, you know, the great// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Merchant Navy Display. So they gave us a whole box of //balloons// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and miles of, of rope and string //and stuff - and we would// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: let out these great //bundles of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: balloon over the stern of the ship //and see how// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: far it would go before it hit the //water.// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// F1190: //We did this for hours on end.// //The crew were just// F1189: //[laugh],// //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //wonderful to us, because there was// only about six children //on the whole ship.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// //mm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: //So we had a great time, and we learnt to swim on the ship, and// we got very sea-sick on it too, at the beginning, //but we got used to it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So [?]that was it[/?], //we, we// F1189: //Was the-, was there a swimming pool,// //on -// F1190: //Hm?// F1189: was there a swimming pool on //the ship? Mmhm.// F1190: //They put a swimming pool out, [?]sort of[/?] -// built it up on the deck. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: And, er, [?]I mean[/?] most ships just h-, do have them //now.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: They may have had them in the First Class, //a proper one, but// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: this one was just, you know, they put up great wooden slabs and then th-, //put a a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a lining //in that, which was waterproof.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And we we had hours of fun in //this, and of course it was so hot through the Tropics that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: you were in the swimming pool quite a lot. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So it was great //fun,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: yeah. F1189: Now, you weren't allowed to bring a lot of things, I know, //in those days.// F1190: //No, that's right, we had a cabin trunk and a// //you know, suitcases, but// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: not a lot of //things.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Erm it's funny, one of the things I do remember about the ship was the lack of children's books, //and...// F1189: //Well I was about to ask// you, did you bring any of your own //books? Em// F1190: //Well, I think we did// //I-I'm pretty - well, we did bring `Child's// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Garden of Verses' //because we've got the original edition there and// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: we brought the Charles Murray 'cause //it's still through there, in the other room.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I do remember that the two children's books - why this should be //so vivid -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: one was an A. A. Milne, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and I had never encountered A. A. Milne before, it was `Winnie the Pooh'. I had never met //Winnie the Pooh, in,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: it's funny, having belonged to the library in Glasgow, //it just had not come my way - so I read all that,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think it was `Now We Are Six', actually. But the other one was one which I've always wanted to trace. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I remember that its title was called `The Children of the Traitor', and it was about some Scottish Highland //clan,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: where their father had betrayed the clan chief and these children were rather //ostracised.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Don't remember anything else about it, and I've never been able to find out who wrote it. F1189: I'll find out //for you, [laugh].// F1190: //You find out - I bet you can, [laugh].// Well that was what it //was called, `The Children of// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// //And that was on// F1190: //the Traitor'.// F1189: board, //was it? Mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //That was on board, it was in this funny little library,// erm there was a very nice hostess that - we were of course the bottom class of the, //of the ship,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: so we had the stern, which //of course was a great place to be, I've// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: never been able to understand why they put First Class up the middle. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Erm, but, she would open up this //library cupboard, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: now I must have read other things, //just because they were there.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: But I do remember those two, //it was the only children's books that were there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Did you get comics at all, Mary, when you were //in Scotland?// F1190: //When we were in -// //yes, we did,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: yes, we had F1189: Mmhm. F1190: was it, `Tiger Tim', //and the `Girl's// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Own Paper', and the `Boys' Own //Paper'.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Yeah, we did read comics, um. They were cheap, you could //get them for a few pennies, and,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: even when we were quite poor //because we were poor for a long time after// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: my father died. There was usually somebody //with comics around.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But they weren't, s-s-sort of essential to us at all, because there were all these, you know, you could read books //out of the library.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Right, so you wouldn't have saved them to bring with you on //the journey, no? Mmhm, [throat], mmhm.// F1190: //No, no, no I'm sure we didn't, no, no.// So I don't really know. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: They did all sorts of things - `cause there were so many games on the ship, and they had quizzes, //and// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: I can even remember sitting do- //sort of, doing quizzes// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: er, around on the //deck.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And //it was so -// F1189: //So there were no// boring moments, where you missed Partick Library? F1190: I think I probably did //miss Partick Library, it was a -// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: you know the great thing was that when I got out here I found //this one that looked// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: just like it. //[laugh]// F1189: //Yes, [laugh].// //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //So I stopped, I stopped missing it at all.// Um //but-.// F1189: //Do you think that helped then?// //[?]Do you[/?]? Mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Aw, sure, yes, yes - and I think, eh// you know, when I think of my mother, and letting me, you know, sort of have those //months,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: of not going to school, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I think it was the best thing //she ever did,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because I would've, I might have been alright, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: but I wasn't ready, and she was very good at this. Jim of course was furious, //because he// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was at high school and he'd gone back to school, //and here was// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: I, idling, //reading books.// F1189: //[laugh]// And had you sat any kind of examination, //by the// F1190: //It's -// F1189: time you left, er, //you know, th- - you must've been// F1190: //No, we had -// F1189: at the end of primary school, or near //the end of it.// F1190: //Well I was getting// towards the //end of it, um,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: we did have s-, class //exams,// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: but I don't remember any - I wasn't at the stage of general certificate. //When I came here -// F1189: //Mm.// and no kind of `qually', or anything, that //would've, er// F1190: //No.// F1189: no? F1190: That had something called the Proficiency //Certificate// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: in New //Zealand,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and, for the kids that didn't go on to high school, //and that was a lot of them, at that time,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: uh, that was their working //certificate.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But the year I got into the final year at the school, I went into Standard Five, and Standard //Five was the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: second year, and I was mid-way through the year when I started, and then, in the final year, they had actually abolished that public exam. So in fact I didn't //sit a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a public exam until I went - I did //matriculation at high school.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm, so I nev-, ever had - we did have //tests, you know, how they// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: did at school, //all the way through,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: but nothing that was... Jim did, because he finished high sch-s- primary school, and //sat// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: whatever it was, the official //finish, then// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he went to Hyndland. But he was only there for a //term, before we f- - we set out for New Zealand.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: He loved it, and //he hated// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: Otago Boys' High School. F1189: Did he? //Now I was// F1190: //Mmhm.// F1189: about to ask you, about the differences between //the education// F1190: //Yeah well I think,// F1189: in Scotland //and New Zealand.// F1190: //And here?// Well, I actually don't think that there was very much, //as far as I was concerned.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm we had probably a fairly conservative school, at //Arthur// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Street, which is in a very //settled area of Dunedin,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, draws on mostly middle-class, fairly well-heeled. And we had a teacher who was, very, very like a teacher at home, except that //she spoke with a New Zealand accent,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which I couldn't hear for about six weeks, took me //ages.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Sat there translating what she was actually saying. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And when, you know, you had to do written dictation, //you know, to -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a-and I - baffled about what these words were, that I was supposed to be writing //down.// F1189: //Mmhm// F1190: after about six weeks //I got used to it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I think Jim found it very different at Otago Boys' from //Hyndland, which I think is a very// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: good school in //Glasgow.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And my impression is that the teaching standard at Otago Boys' High School was not as good as the teaching standard at Otago Girls' High School, //which was -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we were in a top w- stream //class, so we got// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the pick of the teaching, //I suppose.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Jim had one or two teachers whom he greatly admired, and he got on very well with them, and in fact, //he sat matriculation when he was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: fourteen, he was very bright. And my mother of course always wanted him to go to university, and he did, for one //year.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And at the end of it, I I was at university at the same time, and I said to him, `Do you realise you've passed everything?' And he said, `Oh bother.' //`It'll be harder to leave.' [snort] And he did leave.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: But she w-, she felt very //upset about that, because she// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: thought if he'd stayed in //Scotland// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he would have gone //on at -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and gone off to Glasgow University. He might not have. But he didn't. //He was// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: perfectly happy not. //But she wasn't.// F1189: //Would she've// wanted him to go back to Scotland //to university? Mm,// F1190: //Well, she regretted that she had left Scotland,// //that was her great regret, was that Jim's education had come to an end// F1189: //uh-huh, uh-huh, [throat], mmhm.// F1190: when he wanted it //to, and he tho-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: she prob-, he probably wouldn't have left school //if he had been at Hyndland.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But he might have, you know, boys change over three or four //years,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and it-it's hard to say. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But that school was a very sporting //school,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, i-if you were good at rugby football, //it was -// F1189: //Mmhm,// //I see, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //you were fine, and// //he -// F1189: //So it's in a classic boys'// //school, type of mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It was absolutely in a classic boys' school, whereas// Otago Girls' High //School had been// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the first - well it was the first public girls' //school in the Southern Hemisphere// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: actually, and it had a huge pride //in this.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And there w- - it wasn't a feminist school, we just assumed that we //could do anything.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And our teachers assumed that we could do anything, that was the way //that school was.// F1189: //Mmhm.// There does seem to be a legacy of of giving girls access to education in New Zealand. F1190: Yes, //yes,// F1189: //Erm// F1190: very early. //Out of that school// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: came, uh, I think the first woman lawyer, or the first woman //doctor in New Zealand.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: They had a bit of a rough time, trying to be //doctors in early days, `cause the male students didn't// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: want them there. But that school just - //that was the way it taught, and I// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: imagine that it had always taught that way, that you could, in fact, achieve //whatever you wanted to achieve// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: as a woman. Er, without any, sort of, blatant feminism, //it just didn't exist in those days.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But we just emerged from that //school -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you were going to university, and you were going to do this, and F1189: Mmhm. F1190: there was a choice around - well I happened to have fallen into the public library in my last year at school, and got a part-time job. Well that was it forever. F1189: [laugh] F1190: But my friends //went off teaching, or// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: kindergartening, some of them nursed, //not many.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But that was just what you were going to //do,// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, yeah,// F1190: //and it was a great place.// F1189: a lot of that em uh egalitarianism in-in education here is is put down to the Presbyterian //ethos, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, yes,// //there was a passion for education in those early// F1189: //W-were you, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [swallow], eh, early //settlers, of course, it was a,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was a church //settlement,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and my friend, who's in this //book, John// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Hislop, he came out in eighteen sixty-three //to a little// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: school, just over the hill from here, but he was brought specifically to bring the Scottish system of education //to New Zealand, to Dunedin.// F1189: //Mmhm, hm.// Mmhm. F1190: That was it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: That was his - and the whole lot of them were brought out //at the time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And a great many of the early professors at the, well the university, a lot of the early professorships were funded by the //Presbyterian Church.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //You know, the university started// on the smell of an oily rag, really. F1189: [laugh] F1190: And, you kn-, there were hardly anybody here //when they started the university, there were about// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: a hundred and forty thousand people in the whole province. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But you were going to have a //university, that was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: just the course of //nature, you had a university.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And here were these high schools for boys and girls, Otago Girls' was eighteen seventy-one, //I think, it started, and Boys' were// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: eighteen sixty-three. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The professors at the university came and examined the girls in Maths and //Science, and such, and some of the// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: early reports report them to be just as efficient as the boys at the Boys' High School. [giggle] F1189: Very good. //[laugh]// F1190: //So there you are, [laugh] feminism rife! [laugh]// F1189: Now were your own family Presbyterian then? //Or did they have// F1190: //Yes, th-,// F1189: a religious //affiliation? Mmhm, mm.// F1190: //they, er, my mother had been brought up, I think, very much// a church person. //But my// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: father and mother didn't go to church. We were christened in the Church of //Scotland of course,// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: and as my mother got older, we did go to the //Presbyterian Church here,// F1189: //mmhm, mmhm// F1190: and, erm, but she was never, she never insisted that we do things //like go to Sunday School if we didn't want to,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I don't think Jim ever believed a word of it. F1189: [laugh] F1190: For a while I used to go to SCM //at the university.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: For some reason or other, half my friends married Presbyterian ministers, and my cousins were Presbyterian //ministers, it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: right through the family, //there were// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a-a lot of Presbyterian //ministers around, [laugh].// F1189: //Mmhm, [laugh].// So did you have a Bible in your house //then?// F1190: //Oh yes,// //oh yes, always, always,// F1189: //Right, mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: and I found my father's Bible, //which had been given// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to him, by his Sunday //School teacher in the eighteen nineties,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I've still got //that.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //And what about// F1190: //So th-// F1189: yourself, did you ever, were you ever in receipt of Sunday School prizes? I know you said your parents //didn't make you go, but// F1190: //No, no, I,// I-I-I //didn't.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: I went to Sunday School for a bit in Glasgow, //when we were at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Napiershall Street, and I didn't like it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So we were never made to go at //all.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: When I was here, I went to th- really because my friends did, they trotted me off //to SCM on, er, the university,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but I also got involved at St. Andrew's Church which you can see across the harbour, //and it, yes, it,// F1189: //Uh-huh, I can, yes, uh-huh.// F1190: it happened to be at a time when the minister of that //church// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was the Moderator of the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand. //So he went away, he was a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: terribly boring, terribly boring //preacher,// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: and we got a man from Glasgow called Dr. Menzies. //I don't know what his Christian name was, but he had// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think been the minister of the Tron Church. //[click]// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And he was a revelation, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: he was just great. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: You never knew what his sermon was going to be, you never knew how long it was going to be - I don't think he knew either. And he was - he had us rapt, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: the whole, and I started teaching teaching the Senior Bible Class, and that was a terrible experience, //because I realised// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: I was trying to teach things I didn't believe. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I didn't exactly break from the church then, but I broke from all of that. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I used to take my mother to church - and I still have all these Presbyterian friends who wonder why I don't go to church. [laugh] But there you are. F1189: Yeah, [laugh]. //Uh-huh.// F1190: //Yep.// So they're, r- - I get on with them //very well, they don't seem to mind.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: No, they're not a bit critical. F1189: Right, they-they haven't tried to //get you on side? [laugh]// F1190: //No, no,// they don't do, //they don't really, they just accept it,// F1189: //uh-huh.// F1190: that's it. F1189: Well, before we move on from that part of your transition from //Scotland,// F1190: //Mmhm.// F1189: erm, to New Zealand, could I just ask you, before we do that, if you remember reading anything about New Zealand before you left? F1190: I think that //we did in fact get a lot of,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I don't think we, I read what books I could //find,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and there one or two about New Zealand //children,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and, but, I - there were far more about //Australian children, so I read// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: a lot about - I read those, //in Glasgow still.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm but we did get - there used to be very good weekly illustrated papers around New Zealand, one was the Auckland Weekly News, //and the other was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the New Zealand //Freelance.// F1189: //Mmhm.// mmhm F1190: They must have come quite often, because I have memories of going through these, they were very illustrated, //and had a lot of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: quite long articles //in them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So we did know quite a lot about the //place.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I think it was more from from, sort of, newspaper F1189: Mm. F1190: weeklies, //than from books.// F1189: //So it would be your family// who sent them //back to Scotland? Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, it would by my aunts would send them.// I think, particularly the aunt in Wellington, //I think she// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: realised that, you know, Mum was //interested in this, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: she would send the //Freelance and the Auckland Weekly.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So that, these things came, //because they were so familiar when we came here.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I think there weren't very many books, //at that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: stage, there was almo- no children's literature //generated in New Zealand - there's a lot now,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm// F1190: but there wasn't then. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But we did read there was `Seven Little Australians', was one of the ones I //remember reading. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: And erm... F1189: Well that makes a change from the other one. //Yes, [?]that's[/?] - [laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, that's right, that's right. It always - it was a foreign country.// Erm, but I don't, //er, no I don't think I ever found, erm// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: until after //I came out// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: here, when there began to //be// F1189: //mmhm// F1190: some publications in //New Zealand, but New Zealand// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: children's books have flourished in //the last,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: what - thirty, forty years, //rather than// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: then. F1189: So from the-these, newspapers and magazines, then, what sort of impression did you get? What did you think you were //you were coming to?// F1190: //I don't think, er -// I don't think we felt //it was anything// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very different from //Scotland.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: That was the funny part about it. I think, oh, uh Wellington, we arrived in //Wellington, on the ship,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and it came as a real shock, visually, because it's full of wooden //houses.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: [throat] We thought the whole place looked so temporary, //l-l-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: looking at us, like a Wild West //set, you know, from the cinema.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [throat] Then when we came to Dunedin, walked along the main street and it's full of stone //buildings,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: suddenly this began to feel more //normal.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: But it wasn't really until we moved into town, we stayed with my aunt, who had a-a house out in Concord, which was quite a distant suburb //in those days, but it's now part of the city,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and they were - it was a wooden //house and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: they had a big garden, and they had an orchard, //and this felt// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very strange to us, `cause we were city kids, //weren't we?// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Then we came into town and we lived quite close to the city, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and there it was, with its stone buildings up the main //street.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And there was Princes Street and George Street and Hanover Street and //Moray Place and,// F1189: //Yes,// [laugh]. F1190: you know, it all - it all felt very like Edinburgh, //except it didn't look like Edinburgh, but it felt like it.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So it was familiar, //so that was better.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And the school at Arthur Street at that stage was a stone main building. It's the, er - the old building was mm pulled down, and new modern buildings built. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But the, you know, the Otago Boys' High School sits up //there, you can// F1189: //Mmhm// F1190: see it against the bush with its towers, F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: very trad //looking.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Uh and the- there were bigger buildings //beginning to be// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: built in the city, but it did feel, funnily enough, more like a city than Wellington did. F1189: Mm. F1190: Th- coming down on the train, I think was our greatest, funniest experience. We crossed over on the inter-island ferry, which is how you got down //here, and we came// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: down on the train and we were unsuspecting. We had no idea that when the train stopped for fifteen minutes, everybody in the train raced for food. Well we were always at the back of the //queue, we just// F1189: //Aye.// F1190: got nowhere. F1189: Being polite, //[laugh].// F1190: //Well,// it just didn't occur to us that you had to dash in and fight your way to the counter //in ten minutes// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to get a bun or a //cup of tea.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: That was our first experience //of coming down through the railway line to Dunedin.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: Oh, fascinating. And very //strange. [laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// We had a wee break there, and I'm-I'm going to start with questions on the library in Dunedin, and its parallels with the library in Partick. //[laugh] Now,// F1190: //Er, alright, yes, yes.// F1189: so what was it that seemed so familiar to you? F1190: Well, partly I think it was the way the books were //bound,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because, you know, for children, very - //it's all very visual, and I think// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: the stock was very much //the same,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because they imported from //Scotland and England, and the books all came in// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: from there. And they were bound by Chivers of Bath, //who were very famous for// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: library //binding.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I think they, I don't know whether they still exist but they - all the time I worked at Dunedin, we always got our serious //fiction re-bound by Chivers, so that it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was [?]bound in brown[/?] leather. So here were all these brown, and black, //leather bindings.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: And, you know, I know that Dorothy White, who was a great children's librarian, and who came just shortly after we came, thought it was dreary. //But we didn't think they were dreary,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: they were magic, like any //books,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: didn't matter they were that colour. In the main library, we had, actually, quite often chosen books for my mother, in Partick, in the adult part //of the library,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I think that must have been all pretty familiar too, because I don't remember it being very different. What I do remember as different was the reference room //upstairs,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which, because it was a central library and Partick was a //branch.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: The central library was always where the reference //stock was, but this was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: acting as a central library //as well as being a lending one.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: So there was this big //reference room upstairs with// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: these long kauri tables and total, total //silence.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: So we didn't really go up there much, //unless we wanted -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [?]I[/?] but I can remember from primary school going up there and using the Encyclopedia Britannica, //and getting it out, and the,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: whoever was at the desk //was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, quite helpful to //kids, I mean we were// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: what, about twelve, I suppose. So that was - there was nothing much in the way of school library, F1189: Mmhm, mmhm. F1190: at Arthur Street, it was just not there. And of course I discovered when I was writing this book about the library that, it had been a deliberate policy F1189: Mmhm. F1190: of Mr McEwan when he started the school libraries, that he went to the more distant schools around Dunedin, //so that, because those children would// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: find it more difficult to come, whereas Arthur Street was just up the hill. So nothing much went there. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It was much later that it got book stock. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So all my interest in books was in the public //library down in Moray Place, in the old Carnegie Building.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm mmhm, mmhm// Yes, uh-huh, I've seen the old plaque at the new-the newer library, //in Dunedin, with the,// F1190: //Right, yes, y-,// //y-,// F1189: //th-the// commemoration of Carnegie's, //ehm// F1190: //that's right - have you seen the old building?// //Because it's still very much used and of course it sits up there looking handsome, and there are// F1189: //I haven't seen the old building yet, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: thistles on the front of it, F1189: Well, I'll look //out for that [laugh]// F1190: //just-just to show it, [laugh], just to show where it came from.// //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// //Now,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: if you cast your mind back to Partick Library, F1190: Yes, //do y-, I can't think of [?]how[/?] - ah well I don't know the outisde of it, you see,// F1189: //and I know Partick Library, [laugh].// F1190: I can't remember the outside. F1189: It's quite a traditional building, it was built at the the - early on in the twentieth century, before the First World //War, ehm,// F1190: //Right, yes.// F1189: but it's stone-built, traditional, it's got the, the sort of //glass door.// F1190: //And which street is it in?// F1189: I-it's right on Dumbarton Road, //mmhm, yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //Ah right, right, yes.// //[?]Is the building...[/?]// F1189: //And still there// and still a library, //[laugh].// F1190: //You s-, [?]that[/?], eh, [?]in[/?], eh, uh, um,// all those months I //worked at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Glasgow Public //Libraries, sixty,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: sixty-one, I was never near it, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: partly because they sent me out after the first few weeks in the Central Division. //They sent// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: me off with a bunch of staff, to get a s-, new library F1189: Mmhm. F1190: right up in Castlemilk F1189: Mmhm. F1190: ready for, for starting. //So I was -// F1189: //How fabulous,// oh, I want to ask you about that //`cause I've been there.// F1190: //That was, just,// //that was just the most wonderful time, because// F1189: //[laugh], Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: the public wasn't there, but we were //getting all this book stock in, and I had about// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: six girls that worked //there,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, and, doing various things. //I think there were// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: two from the bindery, and the rest were trainee librarians. And we got all the stock ready, and put it on the //shelves.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But at the same time we had builders in who were still finishing the building, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and the local police called every morning and had morning tea with us, and of course they told us stories, most of which were probably apocryphal, but we didn't care, they were //great fun.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: I don't think I've ever laughed as //much,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: as in that period //up at Castlemilk,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because they were r- just so funny, //everybody.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: And the- there was one b-bloke who was doing work on the floor, who had actually been in New Zealand, //so he// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: regarded me as a fellow //Kiwi, you see.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was never a Scot //when I lived// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in Glasgow, I was a, I was the Kiwi. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And he was, er, h-he took a great interest. But he had a great voice and he had worked as a scene-shifter in an opera company, so sometimes he was singing operatic arias, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: [?]and other times[/?] he was singing Glasgow street //songs,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: so you never quite knew what you //were going to encounter.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Oh, it was a great time, I enjoyed //that job, it was just lovely.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh,// uh-huh. F1190: And th-, all this new stock coming //in, you know,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: what the children, when we opened the library called `split-new books //Ma'.// F1189: //Mm.// //[laugh]// F1190: //`Split new-books', [laugh].// //Oh, I'd never heard `split-new' before as an expression.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Had to start all over again, [laugh].// F1189: I'd like to hear your whole Glasgow adventure //ehm, ehm, and, er// F1190: //[throat]// F1189: and tha-, and that's coming up, isn't it? //A-at the time, I -// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: what I really wanted //to know was if// F1190: //[laugh]// F1189: you remembered the books in Partick, if you can see them on the //shelf?// F1190: //Yes, I can see// //them on the shelves, and I can actually see// F1189: //Ehm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: some of the //divisions, because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: of the things I was reading. And there was //one area// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: that was children's fairy //stories,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and for a long time I got sort of bogged down //in that,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because I - you know you get to a sort of hump and you can't take yourself on to the next bit of reading. At the same time Jim was reading `Dr. Dolittle' //and laughing like mad over// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: Dr. Dolittle. I couldn't think why //he read those books, er, I didn't want them at all, but they were there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And there must have been quite a lot of Dickens, because he got into things like `Sketches by //Boz.'// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: He would be laughing away about these things and I thought this was all quite crazy. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But I did, then I moved, out of that children's fairy story area, and of course there was Andrew Lang's //stori-, you know, these coloured f-, the red book and then the blue f-fairy book,// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh, coloured fairies, yes, uh-huh,// //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: //and they were in Dunedin Library,// and they probably still are. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: And then I moved on to I think probably, mostly girls' school //stories,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Dorita Fairlie Bruce and people like //that, and there were a lot of those// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: er, that were around. F1189: Now were they there in Dunedin, //when you arrived?// F1190: //Yes, oh yes.// //Yes they were there in Dunedin,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: in fact that was, it was all //so familiar, you just couldn't believe it.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But ther-, in addition in Dunedin, there were far more //w-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: things like the Billabong Books, which were Australian. //Erm,// F1189: //Right, uh-huh.// F1190: there's a few of them in Glasgow, but not all that //many.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Um But th- virtually the same //stock, well,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: after about a year of me being in Dunedin, Dorothy Neal White came, well she was Dorothy Neal at the time, //and she was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, an //internationally famous children's// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: librarian, and she virtually threw those books out, //and started again.// F1189: //Really?// Uh-huh, uh-huh. F1190: Eh she, th-th-the-they were all far too dull, so we had this brilliant collection coming in. F1189: Uh-huh and what came in then? F1190: Arthur Ransome F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: was one of the ones I remember, um, lots of, of American um, //picturebooks, although// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I wasn't so interested in //picturebooks.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There were lots of non-fiction, um European //stories.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I can rememeber - she lived next door to us //so I was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: one of the favoured families. Dorothy always had favourite families who got the very best //of everything// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: out of the library, of course, living next door //I was a favourite family.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I can remember when I was in the fourth form at high school, so I would be very near the end of using the //children's library,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but I'd got mad about T. E. Lawrence, I read everything in sight, and there must have been some //biographies - I must have// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: read a lot of biographies //I think.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But I can remember going up to Dorothy White and saying could it be possible that she could get me `The Seven Pillars of Wisdom'? Well she was so impressed with //this,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: she marched me across the - //by that time the children's library had// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: moved into a different building - she marched me across the road to the main library and got me `The Seven Pillars of //Wisdom'.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So Jim and I both read it. F1189: Mmhm, mmhm. F1190: But we were all over the place with //reading, just anything// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //So// F1190: //that was in sight.// F1189: was this an edited `Seven //Pillars of Wisdo-' -// F1190: //No!// //No, it was the, you know, three inches wide.// F1189: //no, th-the real thing? Uh-huh.// //Because it is a bit controversial,// F1190: //[laugh]// //Oh yes, indeed, [laugh].// F1189: //isn't it? [laugh]// //Uh-huh.// F1190: //How unfair, because// we didn't know. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I mean I was this sort of innocent //abroad at fourteen.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I couldn't imagine why `The Mint' //wasn't// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: generally available. //I've got a copy of it now, actually.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Uh but I, you know, that was the sort of thing I got - we had a very good English //teacher at Otago// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Girls', Muriel May, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and she got us interested in all sorts of things. But the-the School Journal, which you may not have come across, //but the New Zealand// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Education Department uh put out, and still does //put out things called the School Journal,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and it had excerpts from George //Eliot, or// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, the classics. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And that introduced you to books, //you went// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: from that - and I would pad into the library and get //those ones out.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they-they were great //journals, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: they were just issued free //t-to children.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they were just black and white in those days, but then they really changed //into something really very good.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: They-they're first-class productions. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I - mm, that was a really fascination for me, because I'd been used to having a sort of set text for reading, //in Scotland,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and it wasn't like that. We had these school journals which appeared, and something new every month. F1189: Really? //Now that is// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: quite different, //isn't it?// F1190: //That was// //quite different, and// F1189: //As often// as that? //Every month? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //I liked that, that was great.// And of course because we were poor //here,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we couldn't buy //books,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: [click] so to have these for yourself - //and then you used to take them// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: home and then read them, and then I'd go //into the library,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and ask for the rest of the //book, you know, if it was just an excerpt.// F1189: //Can you remember any// in particular that you //discovered that way?// F1190: //erm I can remember,// //er// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: w-we must have got `Jane Eyre' at some //stage in it, 'cause my - I// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: can remember my mother saying `I think you're a bit young to tackle that', and I must have been about twelve //then.// F1189: //mm// F1190: That was - this was, before I went to //high school,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I went to high school when I was twelve. So I would be, probably in the Standard Six. I don't remember any others particularly, but I do remember //doing this, er,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: but I do remember `Jane Eyre'. I don't know when I started getting passionate about Robert Louis Stevenson, but I've got a fair //collection of his stuff here.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: Eh `Tresure Island' of course //was was always there,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but we used to get, I was interested in other things, it wasn't just the `Child's Garden //of Verses',// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which had been built into our heads of //course.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: When [?]Leanne[/?] was talking to me the other day, we found ourselves reciting, [giggle] the same, //the same poems out of,// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: of-of, um the `Child's Garden of //Verses', and there was another// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: woman who was at that //meeting,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: who started with `Fast-Faster than fairies, faster than witches, bridges and houses, hedges and //ditches', you know?// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: It's all very //familiar.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Was the-, was there much encouragement, in the school system then, for you to read //Scottish books?// F1190: //There was,// //not Scottish books, no.// F1189: //Erm, right.// F1190: Um I don't, they-th- Dunedin was a //much more Scottish place then than// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it is now, //uh, [?]I can say[/?],// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that's for sure, because the Burns Club still existed //and we went to Burns Concerts - we didn't ever// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: join the society, but there were always Burns //Concerts going on, about once a// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: month. And there was a lot of of Scottish influence around the //place.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: But I don't remember any particular influence that //way at high,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: at school, mm, just we read all over the //place.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And you can tell by this importing that John //Hislop did in the eighteen-sixties,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: there were Scottish books, but there were //all sorts of other things,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: you know the - all the Thackeray, all the Dickens, Lord Lytton, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: you name it, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: they were all brought out. So there wasn't, there wasn't a strong emphasis but there were Scottish books, and some of them, I don't recognise the titles but I suspect that there would be a good smattering of Scottish launguage in them. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But in those days of course the number of people here, the proportion of Scots here would be very //high,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: compared with later. The Gold Rushes finished that //off in a way, because people flooded in from everywhere.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But there was - it was still there, and after the War there was a sort of second inflow of Briti- //British people that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: came in. And by the early fifties, er, th-the, Scottish societies were really very flourishing, //and Scottish Country dancing, which I've been indulging// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: in for ever since F1189: Mmhm. F1190: began then, with huge numbers. //And a lot of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: them were young men who came out on assisted passages, //eighteen,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: nineteen, twenty year-olds. So they came Scottish country dancing with us, and they met and //married and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: did all sorts of //things in the Scottish Country Dance Club, my// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: brother and his wife met in F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Scottish Country Dancing. So there was a very, still a very strong flavour of Scotland about, //it's not there now.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: But I don't remember there being a strong emphas- emphasis on the //books,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because while there was a very strong Burns Club, there was a Gaelic Society, there was a Caledonian Society, but there was also a //very strong// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Shakespeare Club, and a //very strong// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Dickens Fellowship, //which have gone.// F1189: //Really?// //Oh, now// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: hadn't heard of that one. //Hm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, a very strong Dickens// Fellowship, which put out publications. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And that was one of the things that Mr. Reid was interested in, erm, one of the things I remember editing quite early when I was working at the library was a catalogue of the Dickens //collection which is in the library, which is a big collection of Dickens material.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: So those things were alive and //well in those,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and, uh, I would think. F1189: Well you had a lucky escape then Mary, because people of your age, had you stayed in Scotland, you'd have been made to read Walter Scott, //[laugh] at school,// F1190: //Well, Walter Scott was about,// //we were, yeah,// F1189: //[laugh].// F1190: I always found that everything I was made to read at school, //I didn't like.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: It spoiled it. //I remember// F1189: //Hmm.// F1190: the `Tale of Two Cities' was one of the things at high school. //The only// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: thing that Otago Girls' High School didn't make me hate was Shakespeare, F1189: Hm. F1190: and we had a headmistress, who - actually we were very lucky, //we had her teaching us a good deal of the time - but she was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: passionate about Shakespeare. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And we all loved //it.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: It was acted in the school, //every,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: every form produced a Shakespeare //play every year, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: the staff would even participate, and produce part of Macbeth //or something,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: so that we were all just totally, totally hooked //on Shakespeare, it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: part of the //the thing at that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: school, was this whole //Shakespeare thing.// F1189: //Mmhm, hm.// F1190: It's interesting to look back on it, you forget about it, //but,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: when people say `Oh, Shakespeare was killed for me at school', I think, `Oh-ho-ho, they didn't go to my //school'.// F1189: //Mm.// //So it was done well// F1190: //Because.// //Oh it was// F1189: //at your school?// //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //brilliant, absolutely brilliant.// Um, [?]the thing[/?] - you know, everybody acted it. I can remember in the sixth form Miss King was teaching us - partly because half the staff had gone to //Otago Boys' High School// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because the men at Otago Boys' High School were out in camp, because the Japanese were around. And she went through,`Henry the //Fifth,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: part one'. And then she read - that was part of the //stated// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: text for high leaving - and then she did part two with us, //'cause she though we'd just// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: like to hear it and she acted every part. F1189: Uh-huh, //uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And we were just, we were enthralled, we just sat there,// loved it, absolutely //loved it.// F1189: //Now this was,// this was a girls' school. F1190: Yes. //This was a -// F1189: //Did you have a uniform?// F1190: yes. F1189: [laugh] //What was it like?// F1190: //It was black and// //navy blue gym frocks and long black stockings.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: I hated the uniform, it was the one thing //I hated.// F1189: //Uh-huh,// //so a bit like// F1190: //Maybe we...// F1189: Scotland then //really, in that way, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, yes, yes.// Aw, it was very formal. F1189: And a hat? F1190: A navy blue felt hat, //sort of a, blue and white band round it and a badge on the front. [laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mm.// //[laugh]// F1190: //[laugh]// Oh yes, //I was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very glad to leave school from that //point of view,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: I didn't... And when you weren't well-off, the //uniform was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a bit of a nightmare, because we really couldn't //afford it, it was very difficult.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: It's all very well to say it's egalitarian, //but it's not,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because it's got to be bought. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Nowadays they've got very good swap systems, and they, you know, they, but... F1189: Do y-, do you think you-your-your school then, Otago Girls' School, was do you think it was quite middle class then? //Was it more for the affluent,// F1190: //Oh, it was very middle class,// //it was very// F1189: //erm,// //girls of affluent// F1190: //middle class.// F1189: families? //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Anybody that was not// wanting to go on to academic //life,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: tended to go to the Tech, //King Edward Technical College.// F1189: //Right, uh-huh, uh-huh,// uh-huh. F1190: Um, it was the only //co-ed school at the time,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: too. There were two boys' high //schools, Kings' High over in South Dunedin, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: J- - where Jim went to, //Otago Boys'.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But Otago Girls' //was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the only public girls' //school.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There were St. Hilda's and Columba, which were both church //schools.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And they had boarders //of course, so lots of the country kids.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But Otago Girls' was definitely, um, most people had professional //fathers, and,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: you know, //we were probably the poorest people there.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// I'm just thinking of these, er, the s-, the school stories that you read. //[?]Yeah[/?].// F1190: //Yes, yeah, the-they all// //fitted.// F1189: //Did they// //familiarise you in any way with, what you// F1190: //Eh, yeah that's right.// //In a way they did, em// F1189: //met there? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But of course, being at a day school //was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er, but it wasn't all that free and easy, you put your gloves off- //on before you left the school,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: your gym frock had to be just the right //length,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: you wouldn't have dared go out without a hat, //you never// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: ate an ice-cream in the street. //I still find it difficult to eat an ice-cream in the street.// F1189: //[laugh]// [laugh] //Uh-huh, [laugh],// F1190: //Yes, yes, it was a very interesting,// //er// F1189: //mmhm.// F1190: th-the principal was an interesting character, she was a brilliant //teacher,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and she had been there, she was principal of that school //by the time she was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: about twenty-six. F1189: Mm. F1190: So she had been there a long time by the time I got there. F1189: Mm. F1190: But she and her sister were Social Credit, politically, //and they made no bones about this.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: They also owned the Red-Band Taxis, which was a taxi company which existed at the bottom of the hill, //below the school.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: Er, utterly fascinated, because every afternoon, //at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: roughly four o'clock, a Red-Band taxi drove up to //the front of the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: school, and the two Miss Kings exited, //into this [laugh].// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So it all added to the //atmosphere of the place.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: Yeah. F1189: And wh-what did you say their politics were? F1190: Er, Social Credit, //which was a Canadian// F1189: //And that?// Ah, uh-huh, //uh-huh.// F1190: //a Canadian thing.// And for a little while //it had quite a vogue in Dunedin, in fact it,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: for a couple of F1189: Mmhm. F1190: sessions at least, there was at least one Social Credit member of //parliament.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But it was a particular system of, of f-f-financial system that they recommended. And I think that it was Alberta and Canada that it was, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: it had really caught //hold of.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they approved of it, and //there was no secret about this,// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: we all knew this, and we all thought that this was //slightly mad, but it all// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: added to the flavour of //the school, [laugh].// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //[laugh]// F1190: //[laugh]// F1189: Aw, I'm thinking too that, you know, in the school stories, there's always one girl who's not quite as well off as the //others,// F1190: //That's right.// F1189: but is the honourable one. //You know, [laugh].// F1190: //Oh right, yes, I don't know that we worried about that so much.// I think what we did have was that our year - we were in this //stream,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that was geared to matriculate //in three years instead of// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: four. And the year ahead of us was full of, //of, uh,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: quite brilliant, and very //serious lot,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and the year behind us was the same. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And in the middle was us - we felt very flippant about all this, //we, d-,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: got into mischief and we did all sorts //of things.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And the teachers would just despair about this, this terrible year, in between these two very //bright years, and that was the sort of atmosphere it was.// F1189: //[laugh]// Mmhm. F1190: It, w-, er, there was none of this business that you hear nowadays that if you're a swot, //you're not good,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and that was rather the childr-, the girls' school stories. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The swots were a bit out, //and the sporty ones,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: that wasn't like that //up there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, academic achievement was very important. F1189: Mm. F1190: Sport was alright, but it was, //it was secondary.// F1189: //Right, so,// so that's not like, em, the kind of //English// F1190: //No.// //No, no, it wasn't like that at all - I played basketball for the school for about three years, and// F1189: //public school, em, sort of image? Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: uh, we were out, er, playing //with all the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: other teams //around the town, because there was no other girls' high school really.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And some people played //hockey, they never played cricket,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: em but... it wasn't desperately //important.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. //[inhale]// F1190: //It was -// F1189: Now you said you-your brother wasn't sporty, is-is-is that //right? Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //I think he would've quite liked to be, but it w-,// he wasn't, //in the// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: way that Otago //Boys' High was.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// I'm just thinking of back in Glasgow, certainly, you know, I mean, er most boys would will have a football team, //em,// F1190: //Yes,// //I don't know what - whether that would've happened or not.// F1189: //to support. Mmhm.// You don't recall any of F1190: I think it had a v-very d-, //er, mm , different atmosphere, Otago Boys' from Otago Girls',// F1189: //that? Mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: that's all, you know, the, He used to come home and he was sort of a bit f-fed up. He had one or two very good teachers, //whom he liked hugely,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, and one of them in fact ended up by being Director General of //Education.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And Jim always thought it was such a waste, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: because he had been such a brilliant //teacher - but some of// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: the others went on up there for years. And successions of F1189: Mmhm. F1190: mothers who came to work at the library who had sons up there would talk about these terrible //teachers, [laugh].// F1189: //Mmhm, [laugh].// F1190: So I think it wasn't //just Jim,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: who didn't like it. //But there must have been a big difference in the atmosphere from Hyndland.// F1189: //Yes, mmhm. But you seem to have// had a-a-a better experience //of-of school, mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes I did - much better, yes.// Yes, I enjoyed it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And then, when I was in the sixth form //I started working after school.// F1189: //So you went right on to sixth form,// //did you? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, I went right on to the sixth form,// because I wanted to do Higher //Leaving, and Higher// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Leaving gave you bursary, //y-you know, your fees were paid at university, so// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: I did - that was four years. And almost all of us left - well, a lot of people went on to fifth, another //year,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to do um well they got scholarship in that year, //which was, you know, they would give you a grant as well// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: as your fees. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But in our year, I don't know whether the war had made us restless or what, //but only// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: two of our class went back into the seventh form, the - which it was now, //the seventh// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: form, it was Six A then - F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and all the rest went off to //university.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And most of us were just about sixteen, //far too young.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I didn't really enjoy it at that //stage, but// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was working at the library, and, //[?]when it's[/?]...// F1189: //Mmhm, [inhale]// So what did you do then? You-you- you s-, went on to //university? Mmhm.// F1190: //I went to university,// and I worked part-time at the library, because again we didn't //have any money.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, //so I w-// F1189: //Was that the// University of //Otago, here?// F1190: //Oh yes,// //yes, yes. I started doing a B.A.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: and I think I did French and Latin in the first //year, and I worked// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: every night at the library, and Saturday //mornings.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And the next year, I started doing French Two, Latin Two. //And a job came up at the library, a full-time job,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which I then applied for and got. So I dropped out of university, er partly because I wasn't enjoying //it, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: partly because I couldn't face doing two Stage Twos and working full- //time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So I quit. But one of my close friends, about two years //later,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I was, I did, then began to do the Library Certificate which was correspondence //to Wellington.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I hated it, didn't like correspondence course, and - distance education, you can keep it, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I would never want to indulge in it. But anyway, I've a great friend, Win, who said to me one day, `I'd like to do it', [?]when I was[/?] at //university,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er , mm, `come with me next year.' So I said ok, not really //meaning a word of it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: However we both went off and we did English One, because the library was very good //about giving me// F1189: //Mmhm.// //[inhale]// F1190: //time, and// //because we worked shifts -// F1189: //Uh yes, I was about// to ask that, how did you manage that, //to matriculate and,// F1190: //Well,// //you know, I made up all the time// F1189: //and to work?// F1190: by working extra nights. //So I worked a forty-hour week,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I did, I did English that year, and then having //started again I'd had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a third of a degree, so //I went off and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I went, carried on, and did part-time F1189: Mmhm. F1190: to finish off. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I actually in the end did an M.A. in History, because if you wanted to do an M.A. in English, you had to have you have to have a Stage Two at a foreign language, //not required now of course.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I had two Stage Ones, //but I didn't have// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a Stage Two so, I did History Three, third-year Eng-History, as an extra, //and went on// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to do History Honours, //in the end.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I did it all. And I discovered, after I had done the whole of my //degree, and worked forty hours a week,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: that, nobody else in the library was working a forty-hour week, they were working thirty-seven and a //half.// F1189: //Ah.// F1190: And I'd been making up my time to //forty hours// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: and swotting at the same time. So I did nothing else all year //except// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: gallop down to the university. F1189: Now a thirty-seven and a half hour week then, was - that was quite enlightened //really, you know? Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //It was quite enlightened, er, th-,// 'cause we worked, we were open six days a week, //and nothing// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: else in D- in the city //opened.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: We were the only place open on a Saturday morning. //So// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we had mums and dads and kids //coming in, it was great.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: It wasn't - there was no //shopping at the weekends.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: New Zealand closed down //at nine o'clock// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: on Friday night, //and it did// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: not open again until nine o'clock on Monday morning. F1189: [laugh] F1190: So we were unusual, //because we were// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: open seven days a week, but, not for lending on Sunday. //But the library// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was open. And we opened for lending Saturday morning and Saturday //afternoons// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and evenings, so I would make up my time by - I think for twenty years, //I worked every Saturday morning.// F1189: //Mmhm, yes,// uh-huh, uh-huh, //uh-huh.// F1190: //And, erm// F1189: It's interesting that it was open at all on-on a Sunday, though. F1190: Yes, //it always was,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: er right through from the //very start,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was always open //on Sunday, for reading.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: Interesting, isn't it? F1189: Yeah, that - did you have to pay for any of your university education? //Or was that free?// F1190: //I had, I// I had to in the end, //because,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my Higher Leaving entitled me to f-f-f-fees for three //years.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But because I did it part-time //of course, that only// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: covered part of my //degree, so I had to pay// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: fees from there on. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: They weren't enormous in those //days,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but you know, th-, every year //depending// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: on what I did, um, usually, when it, when it was a Stage Three subject, you were doing three papers - well that was as much as I could cope with, //and work full-time.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think on one year, I did five papers, well I must have been doing a //Stage Two and a Stage// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: One, I'm not sure. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But that was about as much as //you could cope with.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then when I did my History Honours papers, I sat four papers and did a thesis, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and I had to sit all four papers in one year. But there was no way I could get time //off, for all those lectures.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So I took the lectures over two years and did all the exams //in the second year,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and that was not funny. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: That was really quite hard. F1189: [inhale] Now, that also is en-, quite enlightened, I think, the fact that you were able do it part-time, //[?]if you like[/?] that way. Mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yeah - the University of Otago wasn't very enthusiastic about part-time, in those days, um,// most of their students were full-time, but of course //it was a much smaller university than it is now, it was,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: why, if there were four //thousand of us, it would be about it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But of course it always had the medical school, and the dental school, as the national schools, and the home science school. But I don't think that they were very interested in you, F1189: Mm. F1190: and I found this a great advantage, because if you were a full-time student //you had to go along to the approriate professor, and get him to// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: agree to this, and I quite quickly worked out that I didn't want to stand in queues for all this. So I would make up my mind what I was doing, and I realised you could cancel your //course at the end// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: of the first week, so if you could cancel it, //you could get it authorised, during that week.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So I would appear, instead of Monday, in a queue, //I'd appear// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: on Friday, and say, say to Professor Morrell, [click], `I want to do Stage Two History //this year'.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: He'd grin at me, sign the paper and that was it. And nobody bothered about what you did, //whereas if// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: you were doing a course they would take an interest //in what your subjects were.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I just puddled along. F1189: Mmhm. //Well// F1190: //So that was -// F1189: you puddled along successfully. //Uh-huh.// F1190: //Well I enjoyed it.// F1189: Did working in the library help //you to study, then?// F1190: //Oh hugely, oh hugely.// //Particularly for English, in three stages// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: of English, I hardly used the University library, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: because we had a very, very good collection of, of, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: literature, up in the literature //room.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So, that was never //a problem.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um //History -// F1189: //And what sort// of things were you studying for that, //reading for that?// F1190: //W-well they d-,// they ea-, they each //year,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: in those days, it was very trad F1189: Mm. F1190: British, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and we did, I think the first year I did it was nineteenth century, then we went back to sixteenth and //seventeenth and eighteenth century.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So that [?]Year Ten[/?], you could be doing a //century a year, and you'd covered the field.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: There were two members of the staff - F1189: Mmhm. F1190: when you think of what the English Department is now - F1189: Mm. F1190: there was Professor Ramsay, and Gregor Cameron. Professor Ramsay was a graduate of St. Andrews University, Shakespeare-passionate, //which suited us, of course, from Otago Girls',// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it just carried //us on.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So you always had two or three Shakespeare plays, and depending on your period, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: one of the others. Um, you went into the... but it was, just British. F1189: Mm. F1190: It was never, you didn't bring in American or Australian or //New Zealand.// F1189: //Really?// //Hm.// F1190: //This// didn't exist. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: What you were doing were very traditional, British, //classical stuff.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm, I found it all quite enjoyable. And he was a, h-, er, Ramsay was a specialist in Old //English,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: so, er, in Stage Three we had a full paper //on Old English// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and another on Middle English. I can remember passing Middle English on the strength of Barbour's `Bruce', F1189: [laugh] F1190: `cause I could translate it without even thinking. F1189: [laugh] //[laugh]// F1190: //And I-I found it quite difficult,// //when I was working full-time,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: to cover all those papers, because this was, you know, Old English was totally //new, so you were// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1190: in a field that was - but he was a very good teacher, but all I targeted was passing those papers, //and concentrating// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: on the literature //ones, and it worked alright.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: He was very tolerant. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Now, at that time - `cause you'd been here for quite a while by then, I mean //what ti-,// F1190: //I had -// F1189: what age were you when you, you went to //university?// F1190: //I went to// university when I was //sixteen,// F1189: //Sixteen, and then// //back again. Hm.// F1190: //and then I-I was about,// I suppose I was about twenty when I went //back,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: and I would have been, maybe twenty-five //when I finished.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And th-the year after I finished, //and of course// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I had done my library training certificate in parallel, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: then I decided oh I was going to do History Honours, F1189: Mm. F1190: and Stage Three History, I didn't get a good enough pass, //I didn't// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: think, to do Honours. //So I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: decided to go to library school. F1189: Mm. F1190: So I went to library school in Wellington the following year, to the great fury of the, of the lecturer in History, eh, `cause I cited him as my academic //referee.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And he rang me up and said `But you're doing History Honours next year', and I said `Not with that kind of pass, //Professor Ross, can't do it', and he said,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: `Oh, but you nearly got a...' - F1189: Mmhm. F1190: don't know what it was that I nearly //got, and I said `Well,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: how was I to know?' I was cu-, I was really //not pleased, at all.// F1189: //No, [inhale],// you did graduate though? //From, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Aw yes, yes, yes I graduated, so I would've graduated in B.A.,// then went off to library //school.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, oh, it was quite a long time //later before// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I went back to do History Honours. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Erm, I think it was about the mid-sixties //so I was,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: what? getting on towards, mm, //[?]well[/?], thirties, I was in my// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: thirties by the time I //finished,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I got my finished, //my M.A. then.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// [inhale] So doing all this, er British history and British literature, //[laugh], [?]what[/?],// F1190: //That's right,// //it's -// F1189: //what did,// what did you feel yourself to be then? F1190: Well it was a very odd //business,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: really, because it all seemed sort of, natural //in a way.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: But I felt that, it was weird, that I was in New Zealand, and at no //stage in// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: any of my schooling, did we ever talk New Zealand history or New Zealand //geography,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: never, until I was doing History Honours, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and I did a paper, on New Zealand and //Pacific History.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And as I said to Professor Ross, `I'm doing Stage Four, //having done// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: no One, Two, //Three,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because there never has been any.' F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And, erm, that was the beginning //of there being serious studies,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but we did nothing, er, they'd just finished doing New Zealand geography //when I walked into primary school.// F1189: //mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And from th-, the next thing we did - I can remem-, [laugh], I can remember the first History thing I did at Arthur Street was American War of //Independence, the Boston Tea party.// F1189: //Hm, mmhm.// F1190: I had just finished doing it in //Glasgow.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So I felt as though I was in the same place. F1189: Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh, //[laugh],// F1190: //It was quite odd,// F1189: mmhm. F1190: but i-, eh, I did feel that it was //very -// F1189: //You think they were s-,// following the same curriculum, //in, in s-, yeah, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Exactly - I might as well have been in Britain,// as far as I was //concerned.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And a lot of people my generation felt the same //way,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I don't think we were very conscious of it, because in fact we just assumed that this was a British place. And we assumed, a lot of things about our rights //here// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which has altered a //lot, in the last// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: twenty or thirty years since, you know, that there's been a r-, a recognition of Maori rights //in the place.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: And I thinkin Dunedin, it was all comparatively simple, because the first settlers actually came and negotiated the land sales, //with the Ngai Tahu, who were the local t-// F1189: //Mm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: and already there had been a lot of British people intermarrying with the Maori [inaudible] //[inaudible] so th-// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: In this area, the number of - well there are no, no Maori, purebred //Maori here - but we// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: have a very strong tribal group who are extremely business-like, and when they're given a land or a //restoration thing,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: they make use of it. //That's// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: probably one of their trawlers sitting over at the wharf //there now.// F1189: //Really? Uh-huh,// //uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //They've got one of the biggest// erm, traw-, th-. //But they do// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: business-like things. So that the transition has not //been,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: it's much more troublesome I think in other //places in the North, where there are,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: well, far bigger Maori populations, //for one thing// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: it was too cold down here //so that// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: the people who were driven down here were driven down by war-like F1189: Mmhm. F1190: um, North Island Maori //tribal// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: people who were more powerful. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I don't know how honest the dealings were in the land //purchases,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but, there certainly was a good deal of restoration of of Maori land around //the,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: around the //province,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but no implication that there had ever been serious cheating and certainly nothing like the Taranaki wars, where people appropriated land, quite //unjustifiably.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: That doesn't seem to have happened //here.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: But, you know, we were looking at it from our point of //view, weren't we?// F1189: //Mm,// mmhm. Nonetheless, you mean, you say it was a, it was a very British place. //Did you feel// F1190: //Yes it was.// F1189: British, still? F1190: Yes. //It's not as British as it was, but it still feels British, yes it does.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh,// uh-huh. Now how about, as opposed to Scottish? F1190: Well, that was very //strong when// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: we first came. I don't think it's //nearly as strong now// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: as it was then, //because there's// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: been so much immigration, and there's a lot of Asian //immigration as well as,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and a lot of South African... Erm, we have a //a lot of the medical profession,// F1189: //Yes, so I understand, uh-huh, yes, uh-huh.// F1190: er, is very, //S-, quite a lot of it is South African, and our,// F1189: //Mmmhm, mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: our graduates... I can understand in a way, you know, they had seven years at //university and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all they want to do is see another bit of the //the world.// F1189: //The world,// //yes, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //So they go off, and// it's the same in Aus-, Australian //graduates did the same.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But it's not nearly as obviously - but of course, in terms of tourism, //we play it up,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I mean we have Haggis ceremonies, //and all this.// F1189: //Yes, [laugh].// I just wondered if you still felt Scottish? //[inhale]// F1190: //Yes I do.// F1189: Or if - //you did? Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh,// F1190: //Yes, not as, yeah, yeah, yes I do.// //Er,// F1189: //uh-huh.// F1190: I feel New Zealand //when I'm away, funnily enough.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// //uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //I feel both, and it's,// it's terribly easy //to feel both,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which is quite interesting //really, isn't it?// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// //Now you've kept// F1190: //Yes I still.// F1189: your Scottish accent. F1190: Yeah, well, //I just -// F1189: //And has that// not changed at all, //throughout your life? Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //I don't think s-, I don't think it's changed very much.// It's probably not quite as strong as it was when we were children, I don't know. But I was fascinated when I went to the Hunter Museum at //Glasgow University, and I,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I wanted a print, it wasn't there. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And the - a young man who was serving behind the counter said, `If you like, give me your phone number, //and I'll -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we'll get it for you.' //And I said `Look I'm// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: terribly sorry, but I don't live //here,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I'm from New Zealand.' And he looked me, he says, `You can't be, //you sound just like me!'// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: And I realised that I'd sounded exactly like //him.// F1189: //Yes,// //yes you do, yeah, you've still got a very Scottish accent.// F1190: //Yes, yes, [laugh], yes.// //It's very useful in lots of places, it does no harm.// F1189: //[laugh], Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But you know, everybody //here just takes it for granted.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And in a funny sort of way I think that's what the kids were like at Arthur Street //when I went there,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because they all had parents who had come from //Scotland, or grandparents.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And this is one of the things that I can remember happening, there was a - used to be a session on the radio that Kim Hill ran, and she //had someone// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: who came in talking about language. And a word came up, that they //had never// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: heard of, and I thought, `They can't possibly not have heard of it,' //because it had been built into my head for so long,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and it was built into New - to Dunedin //language.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I can't remember now what it was. So they said `Oh we'll need to find out about it.' The next week, they said `We had floods of people, telling us what that word was.' And it made them realise, how many people in //New Zealand// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: had a Scottish //ancestor, somewhere in their background.// F1189: //Mmhm, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// Well, that's certainly been my experience here, everyone that I speak to tells me about their, //their Scottish ancestors, [laugh], uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, that's right, that's right, they all have this, yes.// //So, h-// F1189: //Now at university// Mary, were there any kind of Burns societies or anything like that, //in the university? Hm.// F1190: //Eh, not in the university,// no, no nothing //at all.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Um, the Burns Club was very //strong in the city,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but I don't think there was //anything in the university and the// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: interesting thing is that Scottish country //dancing,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, a lot of it around the world, //Scottish country// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: dance clubs, uh, in universities, we've never been able to get anything going here. //It just// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: hasn't worked. F1189: No, //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //We've had students who've tried to get it started.// //It's never been there.// F1189: //I just wondered// if-if, stu-, `cause it might have been a fun thing for students to do, to have Burns Suppers and er, F1190: No. F1189: things like //that, no?// F1190: //No, never.// //Interesting.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: You know, given that when I first went there were Scottish //professors there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But you see Ramsay, the minute he'd finished lectures, had left the //university, he was home, that's where he// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: studied. And that may have been the the custom with quite a lot of them, that they didn't spend as much time, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: in their studies down at the university //as they did// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in their houses. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But there was nothing like that that I know of. There were erm, frequent plays, //you know Allen// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Hall, there was a dr-, a Dramatic //Society, th- -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very strong, um, debating //societies, `cause// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my husband, who was not my husband at that stage, but Peter was very keen on //debating, and he// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: came out of a Catholic school of course, //that's where that came from,// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: and they had, you know, debated //and orated// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: all the time when he was up at Christian //Brothers.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And Otago was very strong on //that for a long// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: time. F1189: Your husband was a a New Zealander //then? Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, he was a New Zealander, yes,// he was a [?]New Zealander[/?]. //We met at// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: the Public Library. F1189: [laugh] F1190: So it took us a long time to get //together,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: he was [laugh], he was away for a long time, we //er, eventually married when we were fifty-five,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: so nobody can say we did anything in a hurry. F1189: Mmhm. [laugh] F1190: Yes, yes, and he never wanted, we went to, //you know I met -// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: he was in Auckland, //I was in Wellington working by that time.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: And we went off to Australia //because I got// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: a job over //there, and he was the one that was totally engrossed in Australia.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And he di- - he came back here for holidays, //but he never wanted to come back to New Zealand,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: whereas I would, I very happily came back to //New Zealand.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// Oh, right, //now that's// F1190: //So that's -// //isn't it? Yes,// F1189: //interesting, isn't it? Mmhm.// F1190: yes. F1189: So, you, I take it you always wanted to be a librarian, then, having //started// F1190: //I -// F1189: working in there //part-time? Mmhm.// F1190: //well I think that was it, erm,// it wasn't something //that anybody// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: suggested as a career. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It didn't exist //as a career,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there was no training //here,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: anybody in libraries did English //exams,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and when I went to work at the library, of course I never thought about it //as a career, it was,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: i-in a way it was a bit of a lark. //One of my// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: friends was working there, to make up her age until she was //old enough to go into kindergarten// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: training. And one of my other mates and I were - we went down to the library every //day of course,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because Otago Girls' was just above //the library -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and, Lola looked out of the window and said `Why don't you two get a job after //school? It's great fun.`// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: And I can remember Noleen and I looking at each other //and thinking, `Here, what a lark.'// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// //mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And we went and we got this job,// and we got it for three weeks. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Well meantime, of course, she discovered that she had music lessons after //school and all the rest of it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Well I didn't - and at the end of the three weeks they said would I like to stay on. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I'd loved it, //I really// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: enjoyed it, and I worked in the //holidays.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But it was a mixture of loving it, and not enjoying //university,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: that when the job came up I thought, `That's what I want to //do'. And I knew I didn't want to teach,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm. Mmhm.// F1190: we had all these schoolteachers in the family and we never wanted to have anything //to do with school-teaching, [?]which you[/?] realise// F1189: //Mmhm. [laugh]// F1190: quite early, //that you're not going to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: be school-teachers, //there's enough of it,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: `cause my aunts were. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But yeah, I just didn't look anywhere //else, that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was it, and it just suited me. //And of course// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Archie Dunningham was the librarian and he was an inspiration, if you didn't want anything to be too //hidebound,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he was always changing things, always thinking and - it was just, it was just a terrific place to be. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: You know the training was probably as brilliant as you could get anywhere. F1189: Mmhm, //So this was not,// F1190: //It was absolutely marvellous.// F1189: uh, this was not official training but //training, was it? Mmhm.// F1190: //Some of it was, um// yeah, they had oh long before I went there, Miss Bryant, who was the deputy //librarian// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: when I was there, had written a course for reference //work, because// F1189: //Right, uh-huh.// F1190: there was nothing else //offering, eh,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and they were busy inventing a training course, which was the General Training //Course, which// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I started taking //after I s-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I got the full-time job. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And Mr. Dunningham ws deep in that, and so were the others. But there were also - right through all my years, we had sessions of //training within the library.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And the the deputy was really expected to be the person //that ran that,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I did for years, and so //did my deputies.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: So there was always an element of learning //in that place.// F1189: //Mm.// And what kind of things were you reading at that time, as a young woman, you know, //for for pleasure?// F1190: //Oh, erm// a lot of //fiction,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: erm, autobiography, quite a lot of //history.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And of course, I was reading for //university,// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// F1190: through until I was //you know, sort of in my mid-twenties.// F1189: //Uh-huh. Mmhm.// F1190: But all sorts of things - travel, //biography,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all the sort of English //literature,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just anything. That's the thing //about being// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in a library, you saw ev-, all this new stuff //coming in.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So of course, you were deep into it. //And of course,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in that, those first years, when I was... working in the library, it was wartime, and there was a huge amount of wartime stuff //coming through, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: the demand was //colossal.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then after the war, I was actually in charge of the Commercial and Technical Section, and all the great inventions of the War //were coming out.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: You know, plastic was being written //up, and th-, atomic energy, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: to be in charge of that //sort of department// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: at that time was just //very exciting.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Then people began to get into New Zealand history, because we'd come up to our centennial in //nineteen// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: forty, and there was a very strong, um, publication //series in that.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then Dunedin was coming up to its centennial in nineteen forty-eight, and it wrote itself up in //great detail,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and there's a l-, huge //I mean there's always publications// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: going on around here. Half the world is an amateur //historian,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: busy doing things. //So there was all that coming in,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: so it was all fascinating, erm F1189: Mmhm. F1190: people like Peter Buck eh, er, `Vikings of the Sunrise', talked about the Polynesian F1189: Mmhm, //mmhm.// F1190: //travels through the Pacific.// I can remember reading all those, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and that was all part of //my department, so I was, I was lucky, it// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was great. F1189: Did-did most books, I mean, fiction titles as well as //non-fiction,// F1190: //Hm.// F1189: did they come from Australia, at that //time, or was there anything t-...// F1190: //No, mostly from Britain.// F1189: they came from //Britain, did they? [throat], Mmhm.// F1190: //They came from Britain, and they came from America, we// had big dealings //with,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we had, you know, agents, //that we used.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: George's of Bristol was one of //them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Um, but we we used Whitcoulls, which was //big and who wa- is our,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: doing most of out indent //for us.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But there was a very good bookseller called John [?]Hyndman[/?] //in Dunedin// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and he did some - `cause we tried to give local //booksellers// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er, but we also had Baker and Taylor, //who were the big American// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, book suppliers. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And we got a lot of books from //America,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: huge numbers, but, and a lot of children's books //came from there too.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// I just wondered how y-, how you would've managed during wartime, //you know with the, erm, shipping, yes, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Well that was difficult, I mean sometimes it got shot down and you didn't get it.// But F1189: Mmhm, //mmhm.// F1190: //we imported v-v-// via Britain, //and,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a c-certain amount of Australian... F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Er, uh, the things that you see least in bookshops here would be Australian literature and Canadian literature. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: They just don't appear in each other's //places, and er,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: New Zealand finds it difficult to sell into Australia. F1189: Uh-huh? F1190: And, er - when I go to //Canada,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I take a bundle of New Zealand novels and //I read them// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: on the way, and [?]Ennika[/?] takes them, and she hands me a bundle of Canadian, //I take the bundle of Ca-Canadian to Britain,// F1189: //Is this your friend? Uh-huh, uh-huh,// //[throat], mmhm// F1190: //and I hand them over to Elizabeth or somebody,// and she hands me a whole bunch of //of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: British stuff. F1189: [laugh] F1190: So we move this Commonwealth //stuff around the, around the country.// F1189: //Uh, ah, uh-huh, uh-uh.// F1190: But we we bought F1189: Mmhm. F1190: books wherever we could get them. And, we used the British National Bibliography //once it started coming out,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1190: we went through that every week, //and,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we not only ordered the books, but we ordered the printed //cards.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And when we b-brought from America, we ordered, Library Congress printed cards. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Erm //an- -// F1189: //So what was// the most popular type of fiction then, going out of the library //in in the wartime// F1190: //Oh, I think that -// F1189: years? //[throat]// F1190: //In the wartime,// I think, probably, there w-, it was still very popular //th-// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the really popular stuff would be erm Westerns and detectives //and f-, romance novels.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: But in the serious fiction erm, the people like Graham Greene, //and Evelyn Waugh,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: they were //h-hugely popular during the War, Somerset Maugham,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: miles of others. //The names disappear, don't they?// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. The SCOTS Project and the University of Glasgow do not necessarily endorse, support or recommend the views expressed in this document. Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience For gender: Mixed Audience size: N/A Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: N/A Degree of spontaneity: N/A Audio footage information Year of recording: 2009 Recording person id: 1189 Size (min): 92 Size (mb): 447 Audio setting Recording venue: Interviewee's home Geographic location of speech: Dunedin Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Speakers knew each other: N/A Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 1221 Year of transcription: 2009 Year material recorded: 2009 Word count: 19851 Audio type Interview: Participant Participant details Participant id: 1189 Gender: Female Decade of birth: 1950 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 16 Occupation: Research Assistant Place of birth: Ayr Region of birth: S Ayr Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's occupation: Journeyman joiner Father's place of birth: Ayr Father's region of birth: S Ayr Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's occupation: Domestic Mother's place of birth: Ayr Mother's region of birth: S Ayr Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Mother's country of birth: Scotland Participant Participant details Participant id: 1190